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Old 01-28-2012, 10:50 PM
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Default Use clonazepam to deal with baclofen withdrawal?

Hi, I've been using baclofen for about 1-1.5 months at dosages from 75 to 125mg a day.

No alcohol use previously.

I have acquired 12mg clonazepam (no benzo addiction)

Will I be able to cold turkey the baclofen with the aid of clonazepam? I don't know how long baclo withdrawal will last.. I have withdrawaled from a month of phenibut before and it lasted about a week. I plan to space the clonazepam out over 7 days and then quit it so as to not develop a benzo dependency.

Baclofen is making me feel skittish and sick of the borderline anxiety attacks between doses and sleep problems. I just want to get off asap.

Anyone have experience to the efficiency of benzo use for baclofen withdrawals?
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Old 01-28-2012, 11:13 PM
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Hi Fix

The best way to avoid baclofen wthdrawl is to taper off it and not to stop abruptly.
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Old 01-28-2012, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FixMySelf View Post
Hi, I've been using baclofen for about 1-1.5 months at dosages from 75 to 125mg a day.

No alcohol use previously.

I have acquired 12mg clonazepam (no benzo addiction)

Will I be able to cold turkey the baclofen with the aid of clonazepam? I don't know how long baclo withdrawal will last.. I have withdrawaled from a month of phenibut before and it lasted about a week. I plan to space the clonazepam out over 7 days and then quit it so as to not develop a benzo dependency.

Baclofen is making me feel skittish and sick of the borderline anxiety attacks between doses and sleep problems. I just want to get off asap.

Anyone have experience to the efficiency of benzo use for baclofen withdrawals?
I'm not a medical professional.

Baclofen affects GABAb receptors, and benzos like clonazepam affect GABAa receptors, so the best medicine to use to combat baclofen withdrawal is baclofen (on a short down tapering regime). Baclofen withdrawal has neuro-psychriatric components that benzos may not treat. Medical literature supports this, as does my own experience with alcohol/baclofen withdrawal treated with lorazepam in a clinical (hospital) setting.

While phenibut is nearly identical chemically to baclofen, it has action at both GABAa and GABAb receptors and may be a better candidate for benzo substitution.

In any event, physical dependence to baclofen is unlikely to occur to a very significant degree in under 2 months. However, withdrawal from baclofen can take up to 4 days to present - similarly, resolution of withdrawal symptoms with baclofen reinstatement can be protracted for similar length of time.

I'll second the idea of just tapering off gently - listen to your body, and get help from friends or medical professionals if you can.
-tk

Last edited by terryk : 01-28-2012 at 11:51 PM.
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Old 01-28-2012, 11:52 PM
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Hi, but I've used etizolam to nullify phenibut withdrawals.. so I was wondering if I can use clonazepam which is a superior benzo to nullify the baclofen withdrawal.

If I taper then it means I have to keep taking baclofen, thus lengthening the time I've been using it. Baclo is giving me problems, I'm having anxiety attacks because the durations are random so I'm having to redose too early.. too often and right now I'm looking at having to use 150mg a day and I can't sleep because I need to wake up after 4 hours to redose, else I wake up facing anxiety.

It just leaves my system too quickly. so I just want to get off it asap.. it's also giving me a lot of anxiety because I am having frequent discomfort around my organs, kidneys n liver. it's all bloated up as well.. like my abs are protruding. i dont wanna pound em for one more day.

Just want to know if clonazepam is as efficient at nullifying baclo wd's as benzos are for nullifying phenibut wd's.
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Old 01-29-2012, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terryk View Post
While phenibut is nearly identical chemically to baclofen, it has action at both GABAa and GABAb receptors and may be a better candidate for benzo substitution.
Also to add to this, I think you're wrong about phenibut having significant gaba-a antagonism.
I'm trying to get off baclofen, I can't use phenibut to get off baclofen cause it hits the same receptor and destroys my kidneys/liver just the same. I did try as I have phenibut and I just ended up having another anxiety attack due to it being impossible to dose properly vs baclofen.

Anyways I popped 1mg of clonazepam cause I was coming up on some anxiety already (I start getting jittery anxiety only 6 hours after last baclo dose which is currently at 50mg or 62.5 mg per).. it levelled me straight out so I'm just gonna go for using clonazepam to withdraw from baclo... since I won't develop any dependence to clonazepam during 7 days of use.. clonazepam seems to squelch any withdrawal symptoms of baclo..

I'll update for any people who google this thread when I've completed my WD..

but it seems, if you have no prior benzo tolerance.. that clonazepam or valium would be the way to go for withdrawaling from baclo. As long as you keep the benzo use to a week or less. It has all the properties, anti seizure, muscle relaxant etc..

I really hate baclofen but that's just my reaction to it. I'm guessing most people don't get intense kidney and liver discomfort like I do. I actually get better effects from phenibut than baclofen and it lasts longer. Short duration of baclofen has been a huge problem for me.. I don't know if it's gonna last 4 or 6 or 7 hours, and if I don't dose early enough I get that period of anxiety and muscle rigidity inbetween.
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Old 01-29-2012, 03:33 AM
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Phenibut (beta-phenyl-GABA): a tranquilizer and... [CNS Drug Rev. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI

" Phenibut (beta-phenyl-gamma-aminobutyric acid HCl) is a neuropsychotropic drug that was discovered and introduced into clinical practice in Russia in the 1960s. It has anxiolytic and nootropic (cognition enhancing) effects. It acts as a GABA-mimetic, primarily at GABA(B) and, to some extent, at GABA(A) receptors."

At higher doses, phenibut does have GABAa agonism, it is true that there is conflicting debate in the literature as to its extent/significance.

Only about 15% of baclofen is metabolized by your liver, the remainder is excreted unchanged by your kidneys. People with impaired kidney function have trouble excreting baclofen, and are subject to ever increasing baclofen/blood levels and baclofen toxicity. This doesn't sound like it is happening to you because you mention that the effects of the drug are wearing off too quickly.Have you had your liver and/or kidney function checked recently?

Anyhoo, like I said before, it's unlikely that tolerance/dependence would develop to a significant degree in under 2 months*, and who knows, you might be fine no matter how you stop taking baclofen. Part of the point of my posts is to make sure that no one gets the impression that benzo substitution alone can always prevent withdrawal in abrupt baclofen cessation after long-term use, because there's medical literature and anectdotal evidence that suggests that it very well may not.

Good luck and I hope it all works out for you.

-tk


* from:

Delirium associated with baclofen wit... [Psychosomatics. 2005 Nov-Dec] - PubMed - NCBI
Delirium associated with baclofen withdrawal: a review of common presentations and management strategies.

"Factors influencing vulnerability to baclofen withdrawal
delirium include duration of exposure to the
medication and the abruptness of baclofen cessation. In
this review, delirium arose in individuals who had a minimum
of 5 months of exposure to baclofen.14,20 The minimum
duration of baclofen therapy needed before cessation
produces significant withdrawal is unknown; however,
it has been suggested that delirium is unlikely if cessation
occurs after only 1–2 months of exposure
.25
Further, the abruptness of baclofen cessation appears
to affect the risk of withdrawal-induced delirium."

Last edited by terryk : 01-30-2012 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:33 AM
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Hi

I thought I should share for me a solution for this for any people googling and are stuck in this specific situation.
I was unable to find out from my searches so it's been a lot of trial and unpleasant error to figure it out.

tl;dr at bottom

Yes I have never use a GABA-b substance for longer than 1.5 months. I withdrawaled cold turkey from phenibut 3-4 week use once or twice.. It was agitating and difficult to sleep but, I did not experience anxiety or any physical problems. Once again I quit after 3-4 weeks as kidney pains started to manifest themselves. The other times I quit I used short-halflife etizolam (a thienodiazepine gaba-a) comparable to xanax. for about 5-7 days to nullify the agitation and sleep problems. The doses I was on at the end were about 3-4g a day and it did not exhibit any type of gaba-a activity. Else there would've been cross tolerance for when I used benzo's to kick it and I would've faced withdrawals from the benzo. So that's my experience on phenibut being irrelevant in terms of gaba-a action at least at 3-4g a day over a 1 month span.

To point out my gaba-b use (baclofen and phenibut) has always been 1.5 months or less.
In which case I believe that a benzodiazipine can nullify or dent the withdrawal which will be short enough so not to develop benzo dependency..

I read about people who take baclofen and phenibut for such a long time and wonder how they deal with the kidney discomfort. I haven't seen many report it though. I drink enough water (if I don't the discomfort goes to pain). Maybe I have different genetics that don't lend me well to gaba-b long term use.

It's a pity because phenibut more so than baclofen gives me such a boost, confidence-ability to workout harder in the gym, free from social anxiety. I thought baclofen was going to be like phenibut but with less rapid tolerance increase but mostly I've found it makes me very sleepy,, whereas phenibut gave me a strange energy boost.

I've never been an alcohol user either as alcohol just makes me feel sick unless I use one of those hangover preventer products with activated charchoal. Maybe there's something my kidneys can't handle or something in the way my liver processes things. I suppose I should get it all checked out. I did have full bloodworks a year ago and all came back good, don't know if that checks kidneys n liver function.

Bottomline tl;dr
Short term-use but long enough to cause unpleasant withdrawals: from 1 to 1.5 months of midsize dose use of either phenibut (2-3g) or baclofen (~100mg a day) / combo of both using clonazepam or other benzodiazipines assistance allow cold turkey quit instead of taper. Benzo use should stop cold within 5-7 days while having no previous benzo dependence as to not develop one. Best thing to do is to acquire only enough substance for 8-9 days and stay within normal ranges (Daily 1-2mg clonazepam a day tops with 0.5-1mg towards the latter stage).

Baclofen withdrawals while easier to taper down than phenibut seem to be a lot harsher. In terms of physical effects than phenibut. Never experienced the intense anxiety and bodyload from baclofen as was from phenibut during short-term use wd. Would never be able to live through a baclofen cold turkey without muscle relaxant anti-anxiety+convulsant properties of a benzo.

Long term use
Taper required but still suggest going on a 5-7 day benzo treatment in conjuction with the end of the taper. Unless previous benzodiazipine addiction and current dependence.

Last edited by FixMySelf : 01-29-2012 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 01-29-2012, 12:37 PM
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NO, any Benzo will NOT work for Baclofen withdrawal. Trust me, two different pats of the same receptors. Just taper slow and you'll be golden. I was able to do it... Just take your time. Cut out 10-20 mg per day per week or every 4 days (depending on how high you are now) and see how you feel. Once you get down to like 20 a day... you can pretty much go cold turkey. I did.
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Old 01-29-2012, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bminor View Post
NO, any Benzo will NOT work for Baclofen withdrawal. Trust me, two different pats of the same receptors. Just taper slow and you'll be golden. I was able to do it... Just take your time. Cut out 10-20 mg per day per week or every 4 days (depending on how high you are now) and see how you feel. Once you get down to like 20 a day... you can pretty much go cold turkey. I did.
I think it's clear you haven't thoroughly read my posts.

If I cut down 10-20mg per day per week, no 1. I would get severe anxiety problems and physical taper wd which I've been suffering. Number two.. I've only been on the drug for 1-1.5 months. If I do this slow taper I will have been on the drug for an additional month, while my kidneys continue taking this pounding. In fact I need 75mg doses to feel ok for 4 hours and then I need to dose again, meanwhile I experience all kinds of pain and between doses extreme anxiety. They're highish doses but I've only been on it for a short amount of time.

I don't know how you can blurt out any benzo will not work.. I just spelled it out on my previous post what situation it will work for. It is currently working for me and my situation so that disputes your claim. Situation dependant it will work. Whether it's two different parts of same receptors is irrelevant. Benzos have anti convulsant, anti seizure and anti anxiety effects. All which are symptoms of baclofen withdrawal.

Oh well, I shouldn't have posted since I answered all my questions by myself and was suggested something that would be detrimental and just put me into a longer state of anxiety, put me out for a lot longer than 5-7 days of fluffy clonazepam use. Cause me to needlessly suffer. I'm a bit annoyed but whatever, I made the right choice for my situation. Trust me, I wouldn't even be in a state of posting on a forum if I was on a baclo taper right now.. I'd be all jitzed out, aching body. Worried about the next anxiety attack.

but hopefully if someone else googles an equal situation as I was doing myself they'll find something that might help in this thread.

Last edited by FixMySelf : 01-29-2012 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 01-29-2012, 01:36 PM
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FixMySelf, I hope you are doing well with your plan. It is too bad that you are annoyed with the honest advice that you were freely offered. TerryK suggested that you get medical care, and that is the best advice anyone could give you right now. Even if you get safely off of all of it, you really should have your kidneys and liver checked out. The level of kidney pain and liver pain you are describing, along with the protruding abdomen, are not the norm for people taking baclofen. Especially not at the relatively low dose you were on. You could be facing MUCH bigger problems than anxiety or baclofen withdrawal. I hope you look into it.
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