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**DeeBee** · March 2, 2009, 11:07 AM

Is it delusional to mod?

Eve, your post is so honest and it's hit a cord with me -- all I'll say for now is I am very keen to read everyone's replies.

**A Work in Progress** · March 2, 2009, 11:08 AM

Is it delusional to mod?

That's a beautiful and honest post, Eve.

Here's my small 2 cents on the questions you bring up: I appreciate the approach that RJ wrote about in her book, which (the way I interpret it, anyway) is that "modding" is both a mental state and a behavior. It means, first, that a person has somehow (and some people can do this, others can't) attained a relationship/attitude about alcohol that it is "like butter," or no big deal. I love butter, myself, but would never, every eat a whole stick of it. And, second (because of this changed relationship with alcohol), the person never, ever goes overboard with her/his drinking. Just like a "normal" drinker, getting drunk just doesn't happen. S/he might have one or two but s/he does not even want to have six or seven, ever.

For me, the risk of even one drunk episode a month, or one a year, is too much to take, because I have a history (not recently, fortunately) of driving drunk, and of getting so drunk I am really quite physically ill; I also have embarrassed myself in public, being much drunker than I thought I was, and letting others see that I have a serious alcohol problem and a lack of control over my drinking.

So, for me, even if I can, or could, drink moderately 95% of the time, and only rarely lost control... that would not be "modding." That would maybe be "trying to mod." And for me, that's just not something I want to be involved in. Too much risk, too much worry, too much thinking about alcohol... when I am AF, I have the enjoyment of realizing that alcohol is just not that important a thing to have in my life. It really is a relief to put all that behind me...

**mooderator** · March 2, 2009, 11:15 AM

Is it delusional to mod?

Hi Evie

I dont speak from a position of great authority yet, but here is my tuppence worth.

My goal at the present time (although I fully accept that this may change with time, grace etc) is to become a moder (as my name suggests).

I wander ( and I too would welcome much in put from others on this point) whether it depends where you are starting from as to whether you are a more successful modder, or whether you even want to entertain it.

From my point of view, I know I am not physically dependant on alcohol and am pretty sure if I had been I would want to be AF for life as the results of drinking once may be worse for me. However as someone who hardly ever drinks in the week and if I do can happily stop at one or two, who has just not left behind her student beer monster and still likes the great excitement of a night out/in and tends (although not always by any means) to drink too much and feel like poo the next day, I want to learn a new way.....what I see as a normal sensible way of drinking....i.e.moderating.

Personally I 100% agree with those who say you need a period of AFness first to rethink your relationship with AL. I am only on day 9...but have plans to go at least LENT probably longer before reassessing......

So, I would think, it is possible for some to acheive it, for others it may not. I think either way it is likely there will be some errors along the way like you describe above, but even they dont sound too terrible.

I would submit you could just as easily make mistakes or fail to meet your personal goals if you were AF (there are threads that are testimont to this.

I think its a very individual thing. It may be that some of us just have to give alcohol a little more thought than others to stay in our healthy or comfort zone....but for my money, for SOME people it is possible

Dont know if this offers anything really, but great thread..will be interested to see what else is said. I expect very wide ranging opinion...all of which in its own way to its writer will be correct.

Love mOO

**j-vo** · March 2, 2009, 12:27 PM

Is it delusional to mod?

Glad you started this thread, sister. I think we'll get lots of different ideas and takes on this and I look foward to hearing everyone's opinions. Good points Mooderator and WIP (as always).

**me1455** · March 2, 2009, 02:18 PM

Is it delusional to mod?

I agree completely with you Eve.. I may be quite similar to you. In addition like A WORK in PROGRESS, my drinking and driving scares the living hell out of me. when iwas 21 i flipped my car over drunk. that was when i drove drunk all the time unaware of the real consuequences and what it does. now, 28, im more aware and i never take mycar to a bar. but as my drinking has become about daily, the drinking and driving still happens sometimes..i am so scared i am very close to getting a breathalizer installed in my car.the only thing that stops me is that i keep hoping im going to get the drinking under control where i wont drink and drive. my drinking and driving for awhile has mostly been semi ok, its mainly driving home from restaurants where if was pulled over i would be over the limit ( like two, or three at most glasses of wine) but recently i was drunk an ddrove an hour to my bfs house as w were fighting and ijust couldnt control myself. i was drunk and drove. baad. it scares me so much..but that hasnt happened in yrs. its mostly just driving home from restaurants a bit over the limit. but as you guys say, that one night i drove drunk an hour, i could have killed someone and spent years in jail.

as far as modding ok and then having a bad embarassing night, thats just me right there. ill be ok for awhile, but sooner or later a bad night seems to happen where i do or say something or behave in a way where i want to die the next day. is it worth it? i dont know. well i recently started topamax out of desperation.my drinkikng inthe past two years also went from going outto bars twice a week and getting drunk to daily bottle of wine, with a night out or two at most a week out at bars where i drink more than just a bottle of wine. unfortunately i feel the topamax is making my depression worse, i really dont think i could stay on this serius drug permanetly. however it does help.im not even up to the dosage yet where its supposed to work the best. im about halfway there, and seen aimprovement. what stinks about it is the reason i drink is for the good feeling al gives me. withi topa, the more i increase the dosage, the more the feeling goes out the window. im one of those wantin the high.

**j-vo** · March 2, 2009, 02:58 PM

Is it delusional to mod?

Hi me1455,
When you posted this but sooner or later a bad night seems to happen where i do or say something or behave in a way where i want to die the next day. that hit home with me. I'll be doing fine for weeks (which is much better than I have in the past), I'll have that one night. Then it puts me in a depression. That one night is what it's about for me. The "binge." As I narrow things down, I think I'll be concentrating on that one possible night and cover all my bases so that doesn't happen. That's going to require work, but I'm ready for it.

**A Work in Progress** · March 2, 2009, 03:32 PM

Is it delusional to mod?

j-vo;561195 wrote: Hi me1455,
I'll be doing fine for weeks (which is much better than I have in the past), I'll have that one night. Then it puts me in a depression. That one night is what it's about for me. The "binge." As I narrow things down, I think I'll be concentrating on that one possible night and cover all my bases so that doesn't happen. That's going to require work, but I'm ready for it.

j-vo, me, mood: That's exactly the thing. For me, no amount of work, or figuring it out, or keeping track of my drinking, or setting rules for myself (and I tried them all, for years), ever did the trick. The problem (for many of us) is that alcohol itself is a substance that impairs judgment and decision-making. It's like self-administering a lobotomy. For me, drinking a moderate amount of alcohol typically (but unpredictably) sets up two things: an insatiable desire for more and more alcohol, plus a loss of my capacity to control or stop further consumption. That is, in essence, the definition of "addiction." So it's one of those "best laid plans" things... once a person has reached a state or condition of serious addiction, like I have, the likelihood of being able to drink "normally" (i.e., always able to control consumption) gets pretty remote.

**Sunbeam** · March 2, 2009, 05:28 PM

Is it delusional to mod?

Hi all,
I'm not sure I have anything to new to say on this topic, but I have no reason to believe that drinking moderately is delusional for me. I find that this comes easily and naturally to me now, but the reason is that I don't drink most of the time. Since most drinks are a rare occasion, I feel the alcohol more, I am more aware of the fact that I am drinking. Yes, I really struggled with this last summer, after my 2.5 months AF time but before I realized that I needed to more severely limit how much I drink on a routine basis. I am always fearful of drinking too much, especially socially. I have not recently attended parties where alcohol has been served, though at Christmas that was partly because I was ill. The alcohol (wine) I do consume is with my husband, or a close friend or two in my home or theirs (usually mine). Sometimes still, I consume that third glass, which I think nobody needs. But I haven't gone beyond that since that day last September when I "got blitzed in my chair" for the last time. My husband has a glass of wine on most days, so I have learned to do this from day 1 with wine always available in the house. I did it without any meds or supplements, just self education and reality checks though reading and posting here. I had to develop strong self-control. I was never a daily drinker, and I believe that is a factor in my situation. I no longer think that drinking is all that great, it is just an option I want to have available. For more details on my recovery, see Tell Us Your Story, title My Own Path.

**Sweaty Betty** · March 2, 2009, 08:29 PM

Is it delusional to mod?

Hi, I think its different for everyone, but either way is a challenge, and you can 'slip'. You have to work hard at either 'modding', or staying AF . The drink driving issue is huge for me. I don't drive if I've had any alcohol at all, and have refused to get in a car with those that have. That being said, I'm a city girl, so getting around without a car isn't a problem.

I'm hoping to 'mod' after my 30 days, and am starting to formulate my own 'rules'. Watch this space. B

**mooderator** · March 3, 2009, 05:29 PM

Is it delusional to mod?

B

You are clearly doing very well being almost at your AF goal I have been seeing your days creep up since I joined (10 days ago). Be interesting to know what plans/strategies you put in place...keep us posted with that please....I have a similar goal to you.

I have never been a daily drinker and am able to stop at one or two often, I just have this little beer monster who comes out sometimes, once or twice a month historically and he makes me get pissed and feel awful the next day. It is war on him I am waging, wish to eliminate an issue before I end up with a big one. So modding is (currently my goal, subject to change without notice!).

Good points by everyone, all well made.

Love Moo

**Kid Shelleen** · March 5, 2009, 06:27 PM

Is it delusional to mod?

Answer to Eve's Question...

Hi Eve,
I wondered where I had heard that question!
I remember reading your thread and thinking it was a great one to have running in our "Long Term Moderators"
but by the time I was going to contribute, everything seemed to have been said.
I forgot you had asked me a particular question; sorry.
I see it now.
I'm flattered, really, that you value my thoughts on this.
Here are a few of my thoughts...

I MUST mod, at least at this time of my life.
I tried abstaining for almost a year and it just wasn't working.
Would it have eventually worked?
Could I go to therapy,
get on medication, antidepressants,
eat too much or find some OTHER addiction,
go to AA 3 times a week?
Could I avoid going where there was alcohol; moan about everything being a "trigger"?
Could I keep trying to be something I was not?
I don't know the answers to those questions;
but I did know at least two other things:
1.) down inside I still wanted to drink
2.) occasionally that desire would surface, and I would binge.
The length, depth, and damage done by the binge would be unpredictable.
I was going to find a way to mod; period.

So now, in comparison, even my worst days
(and Monday WAS one) are not that bad.
Is that acceptable?
I think it is.
My wife thinks it is.
My wife knew I was over limit Monday,
but didn't think it was to an alarming degree.
It was a little alarming to me,
which is why I'm taking another look at "Sunbeam Style" moderation.
I'm just looking, mind you,
but it IS enviable isn't it?

"Is It Delusional to Mod?"
If that means "Are we fooling ourselves; is Modding even possible?";
I would answer that we are not fooling ourselves. It is absolutely POSSIBLE to Mod.

"Are you going to be happy with what you personally have to DO to Mod?"
is the more difficult question.
*How important is it to you?
*Would you be happier not drinking at all?
*Will you ever be truly happy with WHATEVER
you choose?
These secondary questions all must be answered too.

Personally, I must stop at one.
The beers I found are great tasting and SATISFYING,
they are strong and they are expensive.
They are not meant to be abused.
It is best to stop at one.
If I drink 2, it is a waste and more than I need.
The other night, 2 beers were well within my system when my daughter and I went out for a late supper.
Feeling happy to be out with my daughter, I had a large cheap beer with my burgers to "celebrate" this happiness.
That was a mistake.
I knew it was a mistake as I was doing it.
I was outside ALL of my guidelines.

What do I do now?
I've been here before while learning how to Mod.
What I DON'T do is drown in guilt;
and I don't start crying, saying "I guess I'm going to have to abstain since I slipped at Modding".
I'm a Modder.
THAT decision has been made.
It's just a question of tweaking and learning until I get it right.
Am I answering your question?

Can YOU Mod?
I think almost ANYONE can Mod.
It takes vigilance and practice at first.
I believe that whatever a person used to abstain he/she can use to Mod;
with at least the same level of success.
That said, if you can't abstain for a period of time;
: red;">you probably will not be able to moderate either.
People say there are too many rules; I disagree.
Rule one: Learn your limit; stick to it; done.
You will find it hard to go very far over your limit once it becomes a habit.
The alarms go off.
The more AF days you do, the easier the whole thing is;
which is why I'm going to consider going to the next level.
I want to abstain many more days than I drink, however moderately.
You speak of "The Beast" coming out and taking over.
My "Beast" comes out after I'm pretty close to already having too much.
Find that line. Drink your limit and wait. After it soaks in, you usually feel pretty good.
THAT is where you stop.
Modding is a possibility for some of us, Eve.
The Mod Squad is proof of that possibility.
Stay close,
~Kid Shelleen~

**A Work in Progress** · March 5, 2009, 06:45 PM

Is it delusional to mod?

That's a very nice post, Kid, and I admire you greatly. I do, however, vigorously distagree with your opinion that "anyone can mod." That's an irresponsible thing to say, in my opinion. The experience of many, many smart, strong, and disciplined people who have tried every way in the book to control their drinking, and repeatedly failed, serves as extremely strong evidence in opposition to that idea... Many of those people have died (directly or indirectly due to alcohol) while still dedicating themselves to the attempt to control their consumption of the substance that ultimately destroyed them. Many, many others died in despair after giving up way too many of such attempts. My father was one of them.

I think it's great that your moderate consumption plan is working out well for you AND I hope that your influence will not cause someone to "try to mod" one time too many, because he or she might believe that "anyone can mod."

**A Work in Progress** · March 5, 2009, 08:20 PM

Is it delusional to mod?

OK, Kid, I see you edited your post so that now you are saying that "almost" anyone can "mod." I disagree with that one, too, for the same reasons I stated above. The "mod squad" is not "proof" of anything except that a few people who are posting here, for a few months, are doing pretty well at controlling their drinking (and some are even doing very well). That's a far, far cry from providing any evidence whatsoever as to what percentage of hard-core alcohol-dependent people "can" learn to consistently, reliably control their drinking. The proposition itself is untestable, for one thing, because for those who fail, the response will simply be "oh but they COULD if only they did it properly," which of course is no answer at all, at least not an answer that is worthy of any scientific respect.

**Kid Shelleen** · March 5, 2009, 08:31 PM

Is it delusional to mod?

I'm sorry...I'll work on it

WIP,
I'm certainly sorry about your Father,
and the others that might serve as extremely strong evidence in opposition to the idea that "Anyone can Mod".

It may seem insignificant, but I edited my post to say "almost anyone can Mod".
However, with the tools we have at our disposal these days,
it may be irresponsible to say,
but I still believe people have a better chance than ever at moderating successfully.
And maybe I should add, that even if I think anyone can Mod,
perhaps without the proper guidance,
not everyone should try.
~Kid~
PS You are right about "proof". But then a few people posting for a few months on these particular threads aren't necessarily proof that
abstinence is even possible.
There is NO DATA to support any claim that with ANY identifiable program of "proper guidance," a significant percentage of people diagnosable with alcohol dependence can learn to consistently, reliably, permanently control their drinking OR EVEN PERMANENTLY QUIT, is there?

I've had people come into the ER after any number of years (even decades) of abstinence, now on a near deadly binge.
Are we all doomed?
There's no evidence that ANY of this is going to work ultimately for problem drinkers and alcoholics; whether we try to abstain or moderate.
We have only our effort, and our hope.

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