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  1. #1
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    so bac may help to moderating

    so im takin it real slow, on 60mg. went to a 4 hour cruise last night and was one of the few people not drunk on the cruise by he end. went out after and paced it..when i started feeling drunk would slow down.. now, im the one who usually blacks out if ive been drinking that long. it could be a coincidence, or it could be the bac.. lets hope the latter!

    another thing is when i wake up the next day i usually crave to drink ( after a long drinking night) but this morning i did not want to drink again. the thought was yucky..

  2. #2
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    It will lessen the euphoric feeling of alcohol. It will lessen the reward center of the brain which in severe alcoholics will make conscious, subconscious and physical cravings so strong that the brain will want alcohol over food or water. The reward center of the brain, which by nature's design wants to keep you alive by rewarding your brain for eating the stuff that will keep you alive. That reward center thinks that you need alcohol to live.

    With baclofen, that biological function is shut down in the gaba system. So we have a normalized reward center of the brain. You have less of a euphoria from alcohol itself so you lose the reward for the brain helping reset it. You lose the post alcohol use craving as well. I mean everything is primed to turn that center off in the brain with baclofen thereby limiting your consumption if you do drink which I dont recommend but hey that's me, my wife woiuld kill me, I have to think that way. And it also prevents the benders we often go on. Where if you drink one day, its almot impossible b/c of cravings to not drink the next day. Its mainly caused by rebound anxiety and neurotransmitters being out of whack.
    Also, there may and actually is I am sure of, an evolutionary reason for this as well. IT is well known with insulin that it is the storage hormone with the body. It stimulates hunger and then quickly restimulates hunger. The higher the insulin release, the more and faster you will get hungry as it drives down blood sugar levels quickly signalling a need to eat.. Have you ever ate a bowl of pasta and then 2 hours were back in the refrigerator craving more. Thats b/c of insulin and biological evolution. If a caveman finds a tree or an animal finds a bunch of fruit on the ground. Nature made sure it was set up to take advantage of that. Eat baby eat! Insulin is released, stores it quickly, drops the bloodsugar, they get hungry again, eat more until all that fruit is tored in fat cells to keep them alive through times of famine.
    So we know that process exists in the body and alcohol causes very very similar cravings only more powerful.
    Its interesting, about 15 years ago when I was studying psych as a research assistant, I came across a theory of that is how alcoholism is a result of that system in the brain that mutated to crave alcohol because of ferementing fruit.

    I mean its all tied in together and baclofen tamps it down, stops it. I think that is why it is also effective or at least it looks promising on other addictions such as compulsive eating. Its the reward system the GABA system that is out of neurotransmitter balance. Baclofen restores that balance and it voila. You can moderate or dirnk like a normal person.
    Again, I think people who need a medication to stop alcohol, should just stop alcohol. But you will always here that position from me but I know many have other goals with modding and that's fine. I think balcofen will work for that based on what I explained above.

    Its basically the same as how I explained fibromyalgia to my wife as she wouldnt take medication for her fibromyalgia type illness that started a year ago. Instead of the reward center of the brain out of whack in us alcoholics, her pain center was out of whack. It just need to be adjust with an SNRI.
    And it worked and I could say "if I was a guy to say I told you so, well then, well I am not going to say it to you, I just wont, but if I was a guy to do that....."

  3. #3
    Registered User. brightlite's Avatar

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    so bac may help to moderating

    Me,

    Way to go on Modding. I am encouraged!

  4. #4
    Registered User. brightlite's Avatar

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    Oh and thanks Mr. Bill for all your researched information.

  5. #5
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    Interesting comments on the insulin release/hunger thing bill. I know there is controversey about the Atkins diet but he argues the same reaction is induced by hi carb diets ( as you mentioned pasta) I must admit that when i tried atkins in the induction phase which is limiting carbs to 20mgs a day I did experience quite a reduction in the hunger feeling obviously the increase in lo carb high protien foods had something to do with it. Just as bac stops the gaba 2 chemical. it is very interesting the brain chemical emotion behaviour thing I understand there is a lot of research going on regarding this for all sorts of human behaviour good and not so good. I have experienced the "no buzz" effect from Bac ( similar I suppose to the no hunger affect on a low carb diet) while drinking. So the moderating thing is a real possibility as the buzz and hence the feeling to drink more for the addict is taken away similar to Nal I spose but with bac the switch off seems to make it permanent. When i was taking topomax it did the switch off but it didnt last as i began to drink through it thinking i could moderate
    Regards

  6. #6
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    Hi oliveoyl, I am not a big fan of the Atkin's diet as I think it sets people up for failure. It literally trains people to eat bacon and mayo and when they inevitably add carbs back to their diet. Boom, they get fat as they are now eating high fat and carbs. Carbs trigger insulin, the storage hormone of the body. Atkin's was big on that, he was a cardiologist as Dr Ameisen was and I know that insulin is the number one risk factor for developing atherosclerotic heart disease.
    The biggest risk factor for developing blockages in the plumbing of the heart is diabetes followed by, in a person who has a genetic predisposition, meaning a family member who has had a heart attack before age 65, greatly increases the timetable towards developing plaques in the arterial system. It accelerates the process.

    Ok, now you got me on my spiel I say everyday lol. The arterial system in the human body is lined by a signe layer of cells called the endothelium. What happens, I'll have to dig up my powerpoint on this describing it. But the process is that cholesterol in genetically prone person gets into and underneath that single layer of cells, the endothelium. Its a fascinating process but the immune reaction of the body sends macrophages to eliminate this irritating substance that is stored in there. This is like a slowgrowing infection. The plaques start growing from the white cells type of immune response and grow and over decades (its a slow process). It slowly chokes off the artery system causing angina. Angina is a greek term for strangulation. Meaning its central pain that feels like someone is strangling into the neck. This happens as a result of lack of blood supply to the heart.
    The heart has no pain nerve endings in it and so a person doesnt feel chest pain. It does and this is true of the thoracic cavity. The nerves run into bundles of nerve plexuses. The signals cross innervate other nerves causing what is known as "referred pain" meaning, you feel it somewhere else. Other nerve endings are stimulated as they are close in proximity in the nerve bundles.
    For example, if I was take a ball peen hammer out and hit one of your toes. You could damn well tell me which toe I hit. Not so in the thoracic cavity. If I reached inside our thoracic cavity and pinched with a needle nose pliers you may or may not feel it in the spot where I am pinching. You may feel it in your shoulder, your jaw, get ingdigestion. Its just the way the wiring is set up. So women are wired differently and often feel short of breath. Or have burning in their back or jaw pain. Everyone is wired differently. So you do testing to rule out the heart.
    The number one reason for testing is esophageal reflux followed by skelelalmuscularpain (something in the chest wall is irritated) and people who I have talked to who have had both an esophageal spasm and a heart attack say they couldnt tell the difference.
    SO they key to slowing down a person genetically prone to this atherosclerotic disease process is to limit this growing of plaques. that means, limiting high glycemic foods that increase insulin production as insulin being the storage hormone will store the cholesterol in that single cell lining called the endothelium.
    Diabetes is the number one risk factor for having this occur as they have to take insulin directly into their body to help store things. Type 2 daibetes is caused by having too much fat> too much insulin needed to store nutrients in so many fat cells to where the body becomes "resistant" to insulin and its storage and requiring ever increasing amount to the point where the pancreas and its natural production just dont keep up with the need. Requiring insulin injections, which now there is a huge amount of insulin in the body helping store bad cholesterol particularly very small LDL particles (which incidentally, the production of which is also stimulated by processed carbs throwing gas on the fire).

    So by limiiting high glycemic carbs, reducing the fast release of insulin, you limit your potential of developing insulin resistance which leads to type 2 diabetes. So for people who are concerned about heart disease. Staying skinny with regular exercise arrests this process and also keeping cholesterol levels good. High HDL and low LDL ratios. Thats why alot of people like Atkins believe in the low carb approach as its seen everyday in practice. He was right about what he said. His dietary approach I disagree with. I recommend and follow myself a protein based diet, regular walking at 70% of predicted maximum for 30-60minutes five days a week. That exercise also releases nitric oxide into tthe blood stream and for oh, about a day and a half the arterial system is dilated and the arterial system is a hydraulic system. If the arteries are dilated there is more room for blood and the overal systemic pressure goes down. Nitric oxide in the arterial system also stimulates growth of of collateral circulation around existing blockages. Essentially growing their own bypasses. Blood pressure is a sheer mechanical force against the inner arteries making them more muscular (arteries are muscular, veins are not) making them brittle in laymen's terms thereby tripling the risk of heart attack and stroke.

    As a side not, most heart attacks (myocardial infarctions) arise from plaques in the heart arteries rupturing. Thats what killed Tim Russert of Meet The Press last year. A plaque has a consistency of toothpaste. So they are by nature not very stable. If that endothelim,s ingle cell layer lining covering the macrophagic formed plaque ruptures and they think that is from friable layer being ripped open by blood pressure surges. What happens is that its like a pimple bursting spewing all of these chemcial messengers into the blood stream. The body doesnt know a cut on the finger or a cut in the heart artery. It sends platelets and clots it off. So you can have a 10% blockage that ruptures turn into a 100% blockage of mainly clot. That is why they say to take a baby aspirin a day b/c aspirain makes blood cells slippery so clot forms dissolves. And its a very dynamic process. Zen is probably rupturing a plaque right now lol. But it usually heals and is filled in with calcium making it a hard, more solidified stable plaque.
    That is why people are given statins like lipitor, it fibronlyzes that soft plaque making it less likely to rupture and cause that clot that can cause an instant heart attack (hich can lead to an electrical storm as the muscle is irritated from lack of blood supply causing ventricular fibrilaltion or sudden cardiac death, the plumbing heart attack caues an electrical heart attack).

    So in terms of cardiac viewpoint. Insulin is a killer, both b/c it turns on production of very small LDL particles and then insulin being the storage hormone, sotres that bad cholesterol in the endothelium lining of the arteries. SO atkins was right in what he says. The high carb diet was a killer and has killed many and also the reason why tupe 2 diabetes has become an epidemic b/c of its massive relaese of inulin making the body insulin resistant and then diabetic a people got fat from high carb diets. They also needed more insulin to store the carbs setting off the chain reaction leading to insulin resistance and then full blown diabetes.

    The sensible approach is to base it on a protein source, limit processed foods as processing foods destroy cellular walls of plants that slow digestino and often causes release of insulin at a higher rate than straight table sugar. Limiting processed foods allow a stable blood sugar, preventing low blood drops after insulin is released which causes hunger leading to overeating, which leads to more fat cells, which leads to more insulin needed bc of all the extra fat cells taht need insulin.

    Its all tied in together. So atkin's diet bad, atkin's theory is correct and right.
    Its based on the old Stillman's diet but made more appealing by making Stillman's QUick Weight loss diet more marketable by adding in more fat.
    Processed carbs are fine in moderation on a diet centered arond protein and vegetables and daily exercise will burn off the processed carbs and stop this cycle from happening.
    Its a fascinating topic. I think I am going to write a book called: If it tastes good, spit it out

    Also since I am rambling completely off topic, I might as well mention that there are 4 drugs that prevent heart attack.
    Aspirin (makes blood cells slippery limiting clot formation in ruptured plaques)
    Statins (stablizes soft plaques, used to think that it sucked choelesterol out, but no, it fibrinolyzes them like a callous)
    Ace Inhibitors (blood pressure drug iwth toher benefits)
    Betablockers (blocks adrenaline the theory being fight or flight response can cause blood pressure surges ripping apart vulmerable plaques)

    Anyways, I was just rambling, I am sure i left some out but you probably get the gist on why I am a fan of low processed food diet while controlling blood pressure and daily walking as somthing to work on after becoming sober.

    Oh I forgot, smoking does the same thing, smoked tobabcco releases toxin (you can chew, no effect just causes throat cancer) and those toxins are also stored in the endotherlium and also get the immune response of macrophages attacking and dying like pus build up.

    Oh and also, a medicinal shot of alcohol raises HDL and you can look at the frramingham study charts of HDL and each point decreases heart attack outcome.
    But I dont recommend that to alcoholics. There was a huge study in Hawaii I believe it was and they followed about 5000 peeople and what they found is that the people who did not drink at all, had the highest risk of dying from heart disease. People who draink 1 shot for a woman 2 drinks for a man had the lowest death rate overall.
    The people who drank 3 or more drinks of alcohol had the HIGHEST death rate overall but the lowest heart attack risk. But thats from driving off a cliff or something, shot by a jealous husband, or really alcohol excess causes many problems with cancer, cirrohsis, suicides. Thats why alcoholics die at a very young age.

  7. #7
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    WOW not rambling at all Bill thanks for such a detailed post amazing !!!!!! . Muchos gratias !!!
    Regards
    Olive

  8. #8
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    Well thanks for appreciating it. Ive started and stopped a cardiac health book several times and working a cardiac information website for the past 2 years on and off. Usually off because of alcohol binging demotivating me.
    That's why my first post a few months back I mentioned making a baclofen information site instead of cardiac health site, but I will probably do both in one site as I think paying attention to health and heart health will help with post baclofen success. Quitting drinking is just the first step in overall health. It limits it but there is a need afterwards. Plus regular exercise will release feel good hormones to limit or reverse depression as well as baclofen having a tremendous antianxiety effect which is the other side of the depression coin.
    I was a cognitive depression resaercher as an undergrad. I'd like to tie it all together at some point after my wife gets here and I have more time.

    Speaking of which, I am off to go walk 5 miles to the gym now that I am sober

  9. #9
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    thanks bill for all your info. olive oil you feel the buzz is taken out of drinking meaning any euphoria? im only at 60 but i feel good from drinking still..

  10. #10
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    olive oil when did u feel the switch and the reduction in euphoria from alcohol?
    (not that i feel much euiphoria at this point in my alcoholic stage_)

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