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Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

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    Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

    Keep in mind that I had an extensive list of questions and did not have time to get to them all. Also, the conversation takes on a life (and direction) of its own. (More about Trazadone in a later post.)

    – As AL consumption goes down, less SEs. And improvement happens faster with reduced drinking (I didn’t get to ask him if the switch point might also be lower if you are AF.)
    But “I don’t want to get you crazy about it” (mentioned something about stress and increased adrenalin levels being detrimental to treatment). “My job is to make sure that you cut down, not your job. My job is to turn the chemistry off.”

    – Works closely with Dr. A, and if he had any questions, he would consult Dr. A immediately.

    – Regarding brands of baclofen:
    Doesn’t know anything about brands. Didn’t even know what brands are being dispensed for his prescriptions.*
    Just believes the U.S.-filled prescriptions are safer because they go through a pharmacy (which would apply elsewhere, i.e. Europe). He said the pharmacies are “strict on quality”, not “fly-by-night”.
    (Didn’t even know the brand name Lioresal. Had to ask me to spell it and looked it up. Didn’t know Novartis, either. He is only concerned about the overseas internet-dispatched products because they are not controlled).

    – After you stop drinking, it takes about 1 -1.5 years for your brain to “normalize” and then it will “continue to improve”. He also used the word “maximize”. I’m a little confused on this point – but I think he meant your brain will start recovering from the time you stop drinking, but it will take 1-1.5 years before this process (of improvement and rebuilding the brain) is “maximized”.

    – Most people respond to baclofen at 210 to 275 mg (later in my notes I wrote “250-260 => Golden level”)… weight has nothing to do with it. It’s all “chemistry and genetics.” I didn’t get to ask him what “respond” means – but I think he meant reach indifference. I also didn’t get to ask him what “most people” means—90%, 70%? (Also didn’t get to ask him if the length of time and how much you have been drinking play a role.)

    – SEs:
    He said “I don’t want there to be any SEs. I don’t want it to be different than water.”

    When I asked him about hallucinations, he said he had never heard of hallucinations as an SE of baclofen. “(You are) a genetic anomaly” (is this true? I thought a lot of other people had reported this.. maybe not.)

    – From my notes:
    “BDFN kicks with the GABA reception… first connection… bac undoes this connection…
    “Like you never had any alcohol in your life. Just like magic. It stops. It turns itself off. And it will stay there for the rest of your life.”

    *I did not mean this in a denegrading way, although it sounds like it. In fact, his lack of knowledge about the different brands only proves, and attests to, his complete separation from the various baclofen producers. I probably should have written: "To his credit, he doesn't know anything..."
    Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life... And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.

    Steve Jobs, Stanford Commencement Adress, 2005

    #2
    Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

    Beatle,

    Thanks for that report form someone who prob. has the most experience with BAC and AL in the US. Did you ask him or have an idea of how many patients he has treated with BAC?

    Thanks.

    Comment


      #3
      Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

      Thanks so much beatle. I'm despairing a bit atm, and would like to talk to you more, off-line about this. (pertaining only to my own situation, folks.)
      Vital, vital information.
      Rock on.
      xo

      Comment


        #4
        Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

        Beatle,
        What is BDFN?
        Thanks
        Sunny

        Comment


          #5
          Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

          Sunnyvalenting;1051851 wrote:
          What is BDFN?
          She means BDNFs, I believe. It stands for brain-derived neurotrophic factors. Dr. L told me about them in regards to the June 2009 Science article. Basically, when the BDNFs bond with the GABA receptors, you end up with addiction. The study apparently showed that baclofen destroys those bonds.

          Comment


            #6
            Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

            Beatle, thanks for the helpful post. It's always good to hear what the actual expert has to say, and you are a goddess for sharing it.

            Comment


              #7
              Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

              Thanks beatle. Would love to know what "maximise" meant. Also, his cure rate.

              I suppose length of time depends solely on getting to the "golden dose"? You know what that means....

              Comment


                #8
                Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

                37degrees;1051825 wrote: Did you ask him or have an idea of how many patients he has treated with BAC?
                Last Octoberish, when I spoke to him he told me he (currently I think) was treating over 100 patients.
                :nutso: I take pride in my humility :nutso:
                :what?:
                sigpic
                Graph of My Drinking From July '09 to January '10

                Consolidated Baclofen Information Thread




                Baclofen for Alcoholism and Other Addictions
                A Forum
                Trolls need not apply

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                  #9
                  Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

                  He told me he "has" more than 200 patients. But I don't think that is the number he has treated -- just the number he is treating now.

                  Yes, many of these questions I want answered, too. Maybe we can consolidate a list and I'll try to focus on those items next time. I know, as Nev keeps saying, I should focus on myself, but many of the questions others have are the same as my own. And others, that I hadn't thought of, are also of great interest to me.

                  So, I'm not sure. Would be good to get a consolidated list of questions together, though. I might be able to get him to read through it and answer the questions -- maybe we should all pitch in to pay him to do it (we certainly can't expect him to do it for free -- although I think that the time is the issue, not the money). He made it very clear at the beginning of our conversation (when I asked him if he had read my email) that he gets hundreds and thousands of emails, and has hundreds of patients and is working on books and scientific papers and has his teaching responsibilities... at first it put me off a little, but I realized it is true, and he wasn't being high on his horse, he was just telling it like it is, which I really appreciate. And it gave me even more respect and gratefulness for him -- I do believe he believes he needs to do this... nobody els (almost) is doing it and, with what he knows, he has to help as many people as possible.

                  Whew, that was a lot. I'm not going to do any editing on my posts before I post them anymore... I am spending over half my day (and most of my evenings) at this point on MWO. I just have to pull in the reins (even though I do get so much out of it).

                  A few more posts now, and then I won't look here until tonight.

                  Sorry for the rambling.
                  Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life... And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.

                  Steve Jobs, Stanford Commencement Adress, 2005

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

                    Yep, as we thought reducing drinking, or going AF gives you a better ride. Interesting about the stress thing because I was told in several rehabs this is a disease of stress, and that minimising stress increases your chances of recovery. Maybe the rehabs got this right?
                    They (rehabs) also say you can suffer from PAWS for up to 12 months after stopping drinking by conventional methods. So is this what he's referring to in saying it can take 1-1.5 years for the brain to normalise?Of course this information can't be true because it's all rehabs saying this, and the opinion I keep getting is that rehabs talk a load of rubbish.

                    If it does tally then it makes a lot of sense really and isn't anything new, but I'm not doubting anything he does say - in fact it just backs it all up.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

                      bleep;1051905 wrote: Thanks beatle. Would love to know what "maximise" meant. Also, his cure rate.

                      I think that maximise in this sense means complete. As in, it takes 1-1.5 years for the brain to get back to what it was pre-alcohol. Just my take.

                      beatle;1051814 wrote:
                      ? As AL consumption goes down, less SEs.

                      ? SEs:
                      He said ?I don?t want there to be any SEs. I don?t want it to be different than water.?
                      I'm sure there are less SEs as we consume less AL, but in all actuality, this hasn't been my experience. I never went on a binge while taking bac, but I did continue to drink my normal amount for awhile. And quite frankly, high dose bac is absolutely going to produce SEs, whether you're drinking or not. I can absolutely attest to that!
                      That he says he doesn't want there to be ANY SEs... I think that's a little bit crazy. He's obviously never taken bac himself! :H That bac could be like water?! Ha! Water doesn't prevent me from getting a good night sleep (well, unless I drink so much I have to keep getting up to go to the bathroom), and water doesn't produce such a loud ringing in my ears that I have to keep turning up the tv, turning up the music, etc., just to try and drown it out!
                      All that being said, I do have the utmost respect for the good doctor and for what he's doing.

                      Ukblonde;1052099 wrote:

                      Interesting about the stress thing because I was told in several rehabs this is a disease of stress, and that minimising stress increases your chances of recovery. Maybe the rehabs got this right?
                      I think that this part is right on. Well, stress combined with anxiety, as many of us have realized as well. I think if we remove the stress, it's easier to stop drinking.
                      However, for me, a lack of stress was also a damn good reason to drink! :H
                      But stress reduction in any form is just good practice for living a healthy life, methinks.
                      Better Living Through Chemistry

                      Switched at 180mgs of Baclofen on 1/31/11, and again on 10/8/11 at 200mgs.

                      Could've been a swan on a glassy lake, could've been a gull in a clipper's wake. Could've been a ladybug on a windchime, but she was born a dragonfly.
                      ~Clutch

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

                        beatle;1052094 wrote:
                        Whew, that was a lot. I'm not going to do any editing on my posts before I post them anymore... I am spending over half my day (and most of my evenings) at this point on MWO. I just have to pull in the reins (even though I do get so much out of it).
                        I'm right there with you, beatle! I have been spending so much more time on MWO lately that I haven't even checked Facebook. Then again, I feel like I connect a lot more (and more genuinely) with the people here than with the people on FB.
                        I've been spending so much time reading and responding to others' posts that I haven't even updated my own thread lately! Which I'm off to do right now...
                        Better Living Through Chemistry

                        Switched at 180mgs of Baclofen on 1/31/11, and again on 10/8/11 at 200mgs.

                        Could've been a swan on a glassy lake, could've been a gull in a clipper's wake. Could've been a ladybug on a windchime, but she was born a dragonfly.
                        ~Clutch

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

                          My opinion of rehabs is at rock-bottom, that's for sure, simply because they didn't list what turned out be a cure, as an option. Since the name itself - rehab - implies that this is what they are seeking, I find it unforgivable. At the same time, a lot of what they taught there has value, I just need to take off my shit-coloured glasses and separate the wheat from the chaff.

                          Beatle, your idea of a group session with you as spokesman makes good sense, I think we should look into it...

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

                            Is: a couple responses to your post (I'm not going to get into the quoting thing -- too time consuming, and takes away from my time here)...

                            I don't think he means "maximizing" as the same as "normalizing", or "completing". What I'm pretty sure he is talking about is as the brain is normalizing (which may take 1-1.5 years), it is also recouping and regenerating -- making new brain cells, new connections -- basically growing. And what I think (again, just think, but this is based on a longer conversation than I could take notes on or convey in my post) is that he used the word "maximize" to mean maximize the process of this growth and regeneration. In other words, it's only after 1-1.5 years that the brain can take maximum advantage of this re-growth process. There is no completing of the re-growth, it just accelerates as the brain normalizes. Did I misunderstand your post maybe? Am I making any sense?

                            Re: the SEs... I think there might be some confusion here. SEs when we are talking about baclofen means SEs from
                            the baclofen. The reason consuming less alcohol whilst titrating up on baclofen would reduce SEs is solely a reflection on the baclofen (and its interaction with alcohol)-- it has nothing to do with alcohol per s?. In other words, baclofen produces certain side effects, and alcohol makes these side effects worse. It doesn't necessarily make a difference in how effective the baclofen is, it just make the ride bumpier because it increases the bac SEs. That's it. So why did I have to write so much? Answer: because I'm not editing.

                            Anyway, Dr. L's comment about stress was exactly the opposite of what UKB was saying. He doesn't want people to stress about drinking/not drinking (which, let's face it, that's all you do in rehab -- stress about drinking/not drinking) as this could be counterproductive to the treatment. His message was clear: baclofen will do the job. His response about stressing was in response to my asking specifically if we should try to stop or cut down on alcohol while under baclofen treatment -- his point: You will have an easier time with the SEs if you do, but stressing about it might hinder the process.

                            Without him saying it all in one go and in so many words, I think we can infer (but not assume) that the answer about AF-SEs-titrating-switch point is simply that you will
                            reach your switch point if you don't quit, most people's switch point is betwee 210 and 275 ... of course we don't know what "most" means, there will always be Sunnies (and others whose names I forgot) and Lo0ps -- and Nevas, and beatles, probably, too, who reach the 'golden' point at much lower or much higher than that amount... but no matter how long you take, you will reach it, and the alcohol will "turn off". His only take on the SEs is that not drinking will make them less.

                            God, what do they call this, a bleeding mouth or something? Oh yeah, I think it's called mouth diarrhea. No editing, no constipating.
                            Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life... And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.

                            Steve Jobs, Stanford Commencement Adress, 2005

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Notes from my discussion with Dr. L

                              Based on that diarrhea deluge, my conclusion is that I should either stop whining about the SEs or stop drinking (so much). (But not stress about drinking/not drinking. )

                              I can drink all the way to the top and feel like shit all along the way; or I can cut out or down on alcohol, reduce the SEs (but I must not stress about it, dammit).

                              I started working on that strategy about a week ago, and it seems to be paying off now (less SEs).
                              Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life... And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.

                              Steve Jobs, Stanford Commencement Adress, 2005

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