Ibogaine

[Booze Sucks]

Hi all.

I just wanted to start a new thread on Ibogaine. I basically stopped posting on this forum because I just simply forgot about it because for 3 years now, I have been totally indifferent to alcohol thanks to Ibogaine. I no longer spend every waking hour thinking about Alcohol and have just been busy living my Al free life and enjoying not being hung over everyday ;} I was think about how grateful I am for my sobriety recently though, and decided to post here in case anyone is looking into Ibogaine or especially for anyone that has not heard of this substance.

I think there is a lot of mis-information about Ibogaine but there are also some real concerns so I would urge people to do their own research and due diligence. When I underwent my treatment I had to sign a waiver that basically said "People have died from taking Ibogaine. We are not responsible if you die... sign here" which is of course very disconcerting, but my research brought me to the conclusion that all of the documented deaths occurred because the Ibogaine was not administered in a medically supervised setting, Over dosing on opiates (Ibogaine lowers your opiate tolerance to pre-addicted states so you can OD on a much smaller dose), or pre-existing heart condition that could have been easily screened with an EKG. That being said, people have died, so this isn't something to just try on a whim and should only be administered under supervision. Ibogaine has been around for a while, but it isn't that well studied due to it's legal status so there could be other long term effects that are unknown. The experience of Ibogaine itself can also be really intense. (You are basically paralyzed and tripping balls for 24 hours).

I think Baclofen is the only other substance that can make one "indifferent" to alcohol, and it's this 'addiction interruption" property that made me finally try Ibogaine, and for me it worked great. I basically had no cravings for alcohol since I have taken Ibogaine. Any attempt to quit that I made prior to Ibogaine would just end with me caving to the cravings within a day or 2. BTW. I tried baclofen but unfortunately the SE were really bad with me, and I just couldn't;t get the dosage up high enough to get to "The Switch" (where one becomes indifferent to AL). To be perfectly clear. I am not saying that Ibogaine is the only way to quit, the best treatment, or even that it's completely safe. All I am saying, is that it worked for me. It worked great for me. I drank heavily for 30 years and got so hooked that I was starting to develop tremors in my hands before I had my first drink of the day - If I "only" drank a 6 pack or 1 bottle of wine, that would be a light day. I tried to quit many times but could never make it more than a few days and was starting to worry that I might go in to seizures if I tried to quit because the withdraws would be worse every time. 1 treatment with Ibogaine was the ticket for me, so I would certainly recommend it to anyone who might be considering it.

Here are some links that I found today that seem good. The only organization I have any experience with is Sunrise Center where I received my treatment

The Global Ibogaine Therapy Alliance (GITA) - A good resource for general Ibogaine information. - The Global Ibogaine Therapy Alliance (GITA) -

Alcohol Addiction Treatment | Ibogaine For Alcoholism - Clear Sky Recovery -These guys have a great description of Ibogaine and how it works for alcohol addition. I would consider using them if I was looking for treatment.

Read here for more information on Ibogaine treatments. -This is where I received treatment. Mark and Haley were really compassionate, they answered all my questions and I felt like I was safe and the environment was very positive and healing during my stay there.

Peace- B

[Baclofenman]

Re: Ibogaine

Hi Booze Sucks

Firstly thanks for your post - May I congratulate you on your freedom from alcohol

I must confess, I have not done a whole lot of research into Ibogaine over the last couple of years although a cursory glance does suggest it is still blighted by the reputation of the possibility of death as a result of cardiac arrhythmias, caused by a dysregulation of the autonomic nervous system (Heart Failure) - Although it seems unclear whether this is as a direct result of taking Ibogaine or as a result of a pre-existing condition is moot, the rate as I recall them is around 1 in 300

It could be argued, I guess that these deaths could or may be reduced by a pre treatment ECG, however as this kind of treatment is not regulated (and banned in many places) it is open to administration by the unqualified, unscrupulous or down right opportunist - If the user is in a medical unit the ecg should not only be prior to intake but continuous IMO

I dont feel as some do that Ibrogaine research and quality trials are on the back burner as the researchers are in the drink manufacturers back pocket (I take it you have seen the latest (unproven) on Koob)), it is more like to me anyway, that as the root bark is un-regulated and in fact un-regulatable (sic), its source cannot be guaranteed to any extent

On the flip side, considering how many of 300 alcohol dependent users would die of their condition, 1 in 300 deaths from Ibogaine may seem quite appealing, especially if administered under medical, in house supervision? Although to caveat that, how many of the 299 Ibogaine users who did not die would remain sober?

Of course, some may argue there are serious risks with other medication, such as Baclofen, however the risks are well documented, officially and most importantly, continued medical support and supervision is afforded where prescribed. i am not aware of post treatment aftercare with Ibogaine?

I think with the absence of anything "official" by means of qualified and quality research paperwork i would steer clear of Ibogaine, however as I mentioned before, my congratulations on your feat

Regards,



Bacman

[Baclofenman]

Re: Ibogaine

You may be interested in the following article;

The Anti-Addiction Drug Ibogaine and the Heart: A Delicate Relation

Regards



Bacman

[_serenity_]

Re: Ibogaine

Hi [MENTION=22770]Booze Sucks[/MENTION],

Thanks for the information! Fascinating. May I ask how much your treatment cost, and how long your stay was? I am really curious how the treatment went for you, i.e. the actual "trip" and how it addressed the underlying addiction.

I have been reading a lot lately about Ayhuasca treatment. It sounds like it works in a similar manner as Ibogaine. I used to be very skeptical of hallucinogens for addiction (after all, I took acid and mushrooms a hundred times in my 20s and it didn't stop me from becoming an alcoholic! ) but am opening my mind to these treatments after hearing accounts like yours. Looking forward to hearing more about this from you.

[Booze Sucks]

Re: Ibogaine

Hi all! Thanks for your replies. Bacman - Thanks for chiming in and I would like to add that I don't dispute the fact that it is unclear what caused those deaths. Ibogaine was certainly part of the equation that is indisputable. There is simply not a lot of data because of the legal status so we can't say for sure. I actually haven't stayed up on the research since I had my treatment so I am far from an expert at this point, but at the time I finally made the decision I was desperate, but I wasn't so desperate to throw all caution to the wind.

I had 2 EKG's and a full physical before treatment, and I spent months researching as much as I could before I went. I was desperate though and in the end I honestly went there knowing that I could not rule out death as an outcome... not 100% at least. I am very logical with stuff like that, it was "possible" that I could die, just not "probable" (in my mind at the time). But please everyone do your research and don't just take my word for it. I found some good documentaries on you tube a fair amount of info on the web, and don't be afraid to contact some providers before making a decision. Educate yourself first, and then email and even call some and ask questions.

-Serenity Hi! I think it was $6,500 or maybe 6k lol it was not cheap for sure. I think he even mentioned something about a discount for people that were in financial duress or something to that effect, but I told him I wasn't (in financial duress). I too experimented with LSD and shrooms at various times and got many positive benefits, but just like you, it didn't get me to stop drinking. Ibogaine is totally different. Its not a fun high, its a scary hardcore heavy duty super intense experience but also profound and deeply meaningful. Its not a party drug and way more intense than acid even... I mean 24 hours is a really long time to be high!!! anyway I don't want to sensationalize the experience by getting into too much detail, but for me it was the most powerful drug experience I have ever experienced and very profound and also downright terrifying at times... but some people have more of psychedelic effect (not at all like LSD or Mushrooms like I said) other people much less.

BTW. Ayhuasca was part of my treatment: Step 1 Kambo detox, 2 Ibogaine, 3 recovery time / lite exercise, 4 Ayahuasca. It was all just a week but I can't remember exactly .. 5 days I think. They were great really treated their "guests" with respect, and it was just a chill large condo... they have upgraded to a bigger house since then. They had a full time nurse and he worked at the local hospital and they just shuttle you over and a technician gives you an EKG (maybe it's a Dr... I had already got one in the states so this one was just because they insisted) but they really made me feel safe and comfortable and I had my own room and own bathroom... There was a sense of spirituality to the proceedings, but then the nurse (who was a hilarious local character) would have me lie down to put an I.V. in to hydrate me. Then I came back in and they would be burning some sage and talk a bit about the recovery process and the importance of having a plan when you get out in the real world etc. So overall I think these guys covered it from multiple angles to help give you every edge, so I felt like they were doing this because they cared (they are probably making bank too, but good for them). The first few months were the hardest but not because of cravings. The physical cravings were gone and never really came back, and by physical I mean the maddening physical cravings. Those all went away, but Al is everywhere and you have just had mind-blowing experience, you need some recovery time, but I quickly got energy back and became super energized and super productive for months afterward. I had to make it through my first business convention that happened to be the same weekend as St Patricks day, I had to have a plan when I went to parties. It wasn't actually as hard as I thought and was actually just the opposite, it was fun to be sober and I was happy that I was getting pulled over at 1 AM after that convention on St Patricks Because I was Freakin Sober!!! Lol. It was hard though, because I just felt like I was on the razors edge like some trigger could make me flip out and start drinking but I wasn't fighting cravings. All right, .. sleepy - sorry for the typos that I'm sure are there. -B

[Booze Sucks]

Re: Ibogaine

Hi all, Thought I would check in and say hi again. Just had a colonoscopy yesterday (fun, fun, fun right? ;} I also had stress test with the cardiologist recently, and all my annual blood work done... the results are all stellar! I am great shape at 55 and I am certain that this would not be the case if I was still drinking. Every Dr. I spoke with agreed that quitting drinking was one of the best things I could do to improve my health, the only caveat was the cardiologist who pointed out that 1 or 2 drinks a day could actually be healthy for the heart, I explained that I have a hard time with the notion of "moderation" in general so have simply avoided all alcohol but might start adding it back in my diet in another few years on once I trust myself to not go overboard. He laughed, maybe thinking I was making a joke, but it I was actually dead serious and it's really strange that this all seems very reasonable to me. I have actually have had a couple of drinks in the last year or so without "falling off the wagon" and immediately falling back into 10 + drinks a day like I had been doing for decades. Ibogaine has made me completely indifferent to Alcohol! I still view this a very precarious freedom though. I know I could easily fall into drinking heavily again if I make it a part of my routine so I am not comfortable consuming Alcohol daily now. The most important thing is that I am in control. I can choose to drink or choose not to. Lately I have been drinking an occasional half glass of wine, of a few chugs of my wife beer that sort of thing, but I am monitoring my reactions carefully. I find that a small a mount of Al (half a drink) gives me a pleasant buzz but I can simply stop there and enjoy it. I definitely don't drink every day and I don't feel comfortable doing so. I actually feel guilty drinking the few times I have taken a sip or indulged in a small glass... like I shouldn't be able to enjoy AL anymore because I abused it so badly in the past... Maybe I don't deserve it, and some would argue that I am courting disaster by drinking anything at all, but I feel its actually probably better for me to have an occasional drink (or half a drink) so that I don't feel like I am completely missing out if someone is making a toast or sharing a bottle of an especially good vintage, but if I ever start feeling any of those cravings or any of the old feelings towards AL, I will instant go back to complete abstinence. It's so strange, but I think the key is that my relationship with Alcohol is different now. Ibogaine reset my neural chemistry, and after 2 years of abstinence it seems like I can have a "normal" relationship with Alcohol, but I remember what it was like before when I had this horribly dysfunctional relationship with Alcohol I never want to be in that place again. I like this "relationship" analogy... it's like I was married to AL but the relationship became this horrible co-dependent disfunction mess so I got divorced, and now after 2 years I am finding that I can have civil normal relationship with my ex. I am still keeping my distance, but since "she" (My ex-wife Al) is friends with a lot of my friends, she is always around so I say "hi, how have you been?" occasionally but not planning anything more serious than that ;} One other note... I live in state where Cannabis is legal so I have been indulging in pot lately and although it's crappy substitute for AL, it does do a really job of getting you high ;} so If I really want to get hammered, I do so with cannabis. If I have an occasional drink I am not trying to get drunk, just enjoying the taste, maybe getting a slight pleasant buzz that's it. If I want a more powerful escape from reality I smoke a joint;}. I still need to have a plan, and treat Alcohol very carefully, it's an extremely dangerous substance and should be treated with caution, but I am in control.

[frances]

Re: Ibogaine

Hi Booze Sucks - I found your post very interesting. I didn't get off AL the same way you did, but I managed to stop for 9 months and then only drank rarely after that for a long time. I had the exact same attitude as you - I knew that it was precarious and I was very careful about monitoring what I was doing, etc. (I kept a spreadsheet) to help make sure I wasn't drinking too often. And I also felt guilty when I did have a drink, but I tried not to because it didn't seem to make sense to me to drink 'moderately' (or less) if I was going to feel guilty every time! But I felt like had a normal relationship with AL for a long time. Thinking back over the past few months I'm not sure exactly how it happened, but I started drinking more frequently (and more quantity) gradually and at some point there was a turning point and I started back to my daily drinking and drinking too much. I'm back here now and AF and not sure if it's gonna be for good this time or not, but I know I need to stop for a very long time if I think I can even try having a drink again. And I also know how easily that "moderation" became heavy drinking - not sure I want to risk that again. Ugh. Based on my experience, I would caution against trying to introduce AL back into your life with much frequency - it is too easy for the body/brain to get back into those old habits!

[Otter]

Re: Ibogaine

I looked into this treatment and this is what I discovered. The way it works is that they give you Ibogaine and you effectively go into a coma under the influence of the drug for the day. That, obviously, means you are not drinking. Then, when you come around, they have to dose you up on valium or librium for a few days while you come through what would ordinarily be a period of DTs.

It's obviously possible for some people to just stop drinking abruptly and then not relapse.

For me, all this does is illustrate that when people talk about alcoholism as an illness and they say that any particular drug is a cure, whether it's Ibogaine or baclofen, that they don't take into account that for each alcoholic, the illness is going to be different in its severity and the way it should be treated. Some people can go cold turkey and white knuckle their way through it. Some can stop drinking by getting psycho-social help either in rehab or through AA. Others are laid up in hospital with liver failure. Some are drinking a liter of vodka a day and spending their lives in their beds. Plainly, you need to figure out how you would get Ibogaine treatment or any of these other treatments to the patient effectively and see whether it's effective for the particular patient.

My issue has always been with the lumping together of all alcoholics as though it's just one condition. With a forum like this, for instance, you are going to get people on it who are at least able to use the internet, type, exchange ideas in a generally cogent manner. You don't get people here who are, generally, so far gone that they can't function on a day to day basis and are just drinking themselves into oblivion every day until they are so ill they can't drink any more.

My experience with alcoholism is with someone who couldn't leave the house from one month to the next, drank a litre or more of vodka daily, did not use the internet, was self harming, had night terrors and went through cycles of alcohol consumption which lasted about eight days followed by days of vomiting, followed by a few days of abstinence and then an explosive return to full on drinking. During the drinking, this person would get to the point where they would not get out of bed even to go to the toilet.

With someone like this, it's impossible to get them out of the house. A doctor paying a home visit would not prescribe anything until the drinking stopped. Using librium to detox was not advised due to the need to repeat it for each time the patient temporarily stopped drinking and it did not prevent return to drinking. Nal was useless for someone like this because there was no point at which they could take the drug, since they were always drinking and they were too drunk to follow any regime of drug taking of the sort required for Nal use.

Baclofen was ideal because you could at least get them to take it and as soon as they did, the drinking started to abate, and you could get some relief which would encourage them to continue. The benefits were so immediate that while taking baclofen, they would chose to drink water even if they had a glass of vodka in front of them.

Unless you've witnessed this, it's difficult to understand how radically different a treatment is for serious, life threatening alcoholism.

I would not say that Ibogaine doesn't work, but it's not a one size fits all solution any more than any other drug and my personal view is, and I am not saying this to put anyone off, is that you have to examine the procedure to figure out whether it is for you, whether you are paying for something which isn't licensed and therefore hasn't got a lot of research showing the long term benefits and relapse rates, and whether those who stop drinking are stopping because they have been, essentially, knocked out for a day and then are so floored by the the treatment and detox regime that they can't drink. What may be happening is that they are just heavily sedated for a week or so and that breaks the alcoholic cycle. For those who need to be safely knocked out for a week, and kept away from booze, and for whom a weeks abstinence will make a difference, then this is a way to get that treatment. I expect that it's possible, if you had a doctor who was willing to do this, that you could be put under anaesthetic for a day and then put on heavy doses of librium for a few days and deprived of booze. Once you got through the detox, if your alcoholism was of a severity that a break from drinking would set you up for a long period of abstinence, and you had good social support etc etc, then, this too could be a "treatment", but no doctor would do this, even with licensed drugs.

That's my two cents worth. I'm now more interested in figuring out why people respond differently to treatments and how to deliver the right treatment in an effective way. In serious cases, baclofen is useful, but it needs supervision and that poses real problems because, yes, a lot of alcoholics who drink a liter a day of vodka kind of resent being told what to do, so you nearly have to force them to take the treatment. Left to their own devices, I don't think you would get a good result in a lot of cases and there's a tendency for people like this to lie to doctors and family about the extent of their problem and to say they are taking their meds when they aren't.