View Full Version : Why?

November 7th, 2007, 12:28 AM
It is sometimes difficult for me to share here. because I know Det really needs this place more than I.
I don't want to blow his cover, but I feel I am in crisis.

As you all know, Det has been having a hard time. He overdid on Sat at a party.
No big deal, really. Just one night; he has to be free to fall down and learn what his boundaries are.

The problem is that he continued to drink all Sun, and I was finally able to convince him to stop that night.
He was in a bad condition, but thankfully no dt's.
I gave him librium and Vit B1 & C and took blood pressure tests often.
He went 2 days AF.

Then tonight Tues. He has had emotional and angry outbursts.
He wanted to drink. He was very upset.
I know when I need to leave him alone. I finally said - do what you're gonna do.
I could not convince him not to drink.

We missed the chance to stop his normal pattern to not make himself very sick.
The next week will be tough. I have blood pressure meds and librium on hand.

We have had talks about his thoughts on what AF means to him.
What is so bad about being someone who doesn't drink?
He considers it equal to leprosy; a social outcast.
He is more afraid of being "that guy" than sick and dead.
It breaks my heart that he is not ready to be free.

Why risk the great things in life?
Someone please explain to me why?

I just miss him.

November 7th, 2007, 01:17 AM
ah my friend. my dearest dearest dex. i was just heading to bed when i saw this. you know the wounds from his past seem to bubble up at times. well feels like it in reading what he is sharing. sometimes those wounds are simply so very unbareable there is no system to put it back on track. i know this is so tough for you as well i've sponsored many a soul but this is your true love. must be breaking your heart. the why question will probably lead you into trouble as there are never enough replies to why i'm afraid. it's a viscious circle. ummm a thought only. has det ever thought about doing the landmark forum? i know you have one right there in your city. and well, i will tell you that even my closest friend just did the forum a few weekends ago and after 14 years of telling him about it. he said why the hell didn't you make me go. hummmm ummmm well, ummmmm. fuck head. i tried. could be a great place for your man and well you too as well to unload years of suffering. pm me if you want to know more. i know you miss him darling but he is in there. by the way the forum is 3 days and you will accomplish more in those 3 days then most people do in years of therapy. swear to god. time to change his thinking and also to free you up as well my lady.
love always with my heart and soul bootsie

November 7th, 2007, 07:03 AM
I am not worthy to give advice to the likes of Det and Yourself Dx

I can only pass on what I have found personally in my journey.

I too thought that being AF would be social leprosy / no "fun" etc. etc. - and this was partly why I resisted quitting completely for a good while.

But once I DID commit - it is HONESTLY the most liberating thing I have done in my entire adult life.

In fact - far from people being scornful or putting me down because I don't drink, many actually are envious that I have managed to quit - some openly and quite a few more, I suspect, secretly.

A couple of friends commented that when they heard I was quitting, they thought I would turn into some boring preaching killjoy. But they were relieved to discover that I was just the same as ever.

I think that is key to successfully doing this (for me anyway).
I chose not to drink - but chose NOT to change many of the other things I did.
I STILL go to the bar with my friends etc. as I always did - only I drink non alcoholic drinks.
I STILL go out for meals, go to see bands, go to barbecues (well one since I quit! - it IS the UK after all!).

I am still the same guy as I was before - the ONLY difference is that the glass I have in my hand doen not have any ethanol in it.

In fact - I am probably MORE fun than I was before - because I can go out MORE because I can drive everywhere at any time.

Take care



Finding My Self
November 7th, 2007, 07:35 AM
Dx - I want to come back on this.... your post touched me....but I have to go to the dentist :confused: and will come back later.... but I just wanted you to know I am thinking of you...and sending a hug. Trite, I know, but I mean it.

Love to you both
FMSxx :l :l

November 7th, 2007, 10:10 AM

The term id is a Latinised derivation from Groddeck's das Es[1]. It stands in direct opposition to the super-ego. It is dominated by the pleasure principle.
The ID is the subconcious part of the brain that is the center of controling all unknown pleasures or desires. These desires one may or may not be aware of, however, acoording to Freud, one will never be capable of understanding all desires. The sexual desire, firstly, may be prevelant in one's mind, although, if one were focused on understanding all of the sexual desires, one would be very disturbed to discover what actual sexual desires one may harbor in one's subconcious. Secondly, the ID is the part of the mind that controlls all religious and spiritual beliefs.
The newborn child is regarded as being completely 'Id-ridden', in the sense that it is a mass of instinctive drives and impulses, and demands immediate satisfaction. This view equates a new born child with an id-ridden individual - often humorously - with this analogy: an alimentary tract with no sense of responsibility at either end.
The id is responsible for our basic drives such as food, sex and aggressive impulses. It is amoral and egocentric, ruled by the pleasure-pain principle; it is without a sense of time; completely illogical; primarily sexual; infantile in its emotional development; will not take 'no' for an answer. It is regarded as the reservoir of the libido or "love energy".
A popular interpretation of the id is not that it is "convincing" the mind to ignore social norms, but rather in itself just does not take social norms into account when 'thinking' or 'acting'. The id is the primal, or beast-like, part of the brain, determined to pursue actions that are pleasurable, such as eating or copulation. The prime motive of the id is self-survival, pursuing whatever necessary to accomplish that goal.

November 7th, 2007, 10:31 AM
he is so lucky to have you. hope he can come to terms with his wounds and grow from there.
sometimes you have to fall hard to wake up and see that you need to move on.

peace and light to both of you


November 7th, 2007, 11:47 AM
Thank you.

Boots - you're right. This question is pointless. No answer will help. I am just trying to wrap my brain around something so that it makes sense. Thank you for your tender support.

Satori - I believe you. I bet you are able to be in the moment and enjoy because you are not chasing for that feeling. I tell Det that those who mind don't matter; and those who matter don't mind.

Findme - Hug received with thanks.

More2 - Thank you. He will be back. I knew he had a drinking problem before we got married. I married him because his attitude was that he wanted to beat this, and every year in the last ten he has progressed so much. This is just a really bad week. He will be back. And thank you, because I know you and everyone will be here for him, like long lost friends picking up exactly where they left off last.

Well Capt - Psych 101 The Id vs the Ego. (My mom is a Clinical Psychologist.) I believe the HBO special that came out earlier this year discussed how the part of the brain that tells us not to eat the entire gallon of ice cream is damaged from alcohol abuse, therefore creating a good old Catch22. Thank you for the educational hug.

Trix - He has fallen hard many times. He has detoxed twice this year. He has had 93 and 120 days AF this year - such success!

Thank you for caring.

November 7th, 2007, 12:01 PM

I, too, am so sorry to hear this. I can really feel your pain. It seems so rational and logical that if alcohol is causing this much pain and strife in one's life then one should just not drink. Oh how I/we wish it was that easy. This life of addiction is so complex and irrational and for people that do not have addiction issues it is very hard to understand. Why risk the great things in life you ask? Good question. Why would we? We know not putting alcohol in our body is the right thing to do, plain and simple, but despite knowing this some of us continue to imbibe.

Determinator has truly been one of the most inspiring people to me here. After reading his childhood story yesterday I can see he has a lot of burdens to carry. Have you gone to therapy together about this? Maybe it would help? I also looked into the Landmark Forum that Barbie mentioned and it looks really interesting.

I love you and D, we all do. I pray he will get back on an AF streak because it sounds like it is really the best choice for him, and you, right now. Lots of love to both of you!!!

Saint Jude
November 7th, 2007, 03:19 PM
Dx & Det, Keeping you both close in my thoughts & :h today. It will get better again.
I'm so glad you have each other...
I know I've put my Hubby thru Hell...

That song "Why do I" by Vince Gill, was just playing while I was reading this thread. It's really beautiful...maybe google & give it a listen.

:l Judie

November 7th, 2007, 03:53 PM
DX....my heart breaks for BOTH of you.....you are so special to us.

I feel like "my children" are hurting...and they are...

I read something the other day that may give some insight.
It is on inner healing...
there may be some connections in your area to try. I can't explain it here but this works for some.

I love you...hug each other if you can.
:h Nancy

November 7th, 2007, 04:35 PM
That was alot to read and take in...Try this one first.

Charisma Magazine (http://www.charismamag.com/display.php?id=16099)


Finding My Self
November 7th, 2007, 04:37 PM
"We have had talks about his thoughts on what AF means to him.
What is so bad about being someone who doesn't drink?
He considers it equal to leprosy; a social outcast.
He is more afraid of being "that guy" than sick and dead.
It breaks my heart that he is not ready to be free."

Dx - this is the bit that I wanted to come back to.....does Det drink for the feeling drunk? Or the absence of bad feelings? (different) Or just because it is nearly impossible in this day and age to say, "I don't drink" without being labelled a loser, a failure, weak-willed, sick, ill, diseased, alcoholic (with all the previous labels), party-pooper...etc etc etc....by an awful lot of people.

OR SO IT SEEMS...as you say, anyone thinking that needs not be in our lives!

This is only my humble thought....how it was for me and I don't wish to project my stuff in here....I really don't. But what else have I got than my own inner thoughts!

When I came to giving up I was terrified....I had the physical stuff to go through and having a vomiting phobia, well, I was dreading it (it was OK for me). But after that, it was truly facing this labelling that terrified me...I had drunk to 'deal with' all the negative labels stuck on me from childhood....and now my 'friend' was going to stick a final, publicly damning one on me to boot.... This had kept me drinking long after I knew I had to stop this madness. It mattered more to me than anything that I didn't have that - hence AA scaring the **** out of me! (For me, I could see that accepting the label liberated most people, for me it was the end.)

I got over the physical withdrawal and then, after 5 months, tried a tiny amount of wine with soda.... 70mls. That is small... and it was enough. I got my place - and I soooh hope I stay there, of course. I had got to a place where I could say yes or no to a small drink...I'd got to a place of, "She doesn't drink much..." rather than, "Well, it's odd...I wonder if...?" I needn't say anything about, "I don't/can't /mustn't drink" or, "I am an alcoholic" or anything 'labeling'. If anyone wants to think that I'm a party-pooper, well, show me the party and I'll show you the party girl!! I don't need booze if I'm with friends having good, honest fun...if they're the sort of people I will feel nervous around do I want to be there?(Of course there are times you have to be places but they're fewer than you imagine.)

I'm rambling but it was the lines you typed that leapt out at me..... if there is anything about that for Det...... well, here is the place for non-labelling! And if people label anyewhere else, in my experience, they have the problem.... I've seen labels destroy people, especially this one.

To desperately need to be an OK guy after all that muck he was dished out...to feel sort of 'normal'...but feel everyone will point the finger and stick this mighty heavy label on him?? Well, of course, I am possibly way off the mark and I apologise hugely for this. But I have to admit that in the early days I would rather have been 'sick and dead' than even more of a social outcast than I thought I was deep down already.... crazy I know, but it was very real.

If I can stay in this place of open choice and ok-ness inside about drink I am blessed for ever! And I so hope Det finds his place with it too. Even if totally AF forever...with the same peace of mind about his decision and, eventually, b**ger what anyone else thinks - it's their problem.

Love and hugs and I sooooh hope I haven't 'over-egged-this-cake' Bit of a risk... this is so important for a lovely, brave, kind man. I hope this hasn't seemed like 'talking aobut Det behind his back...' It's meant with a willing heart.

Lots of love to you both
FMS xx

November 7th, 2007, 05:38 PM
OK...here it is again...Charisma Magazine (http://www.charismamag.com/innerhealing)

November 7th, 2007, 07:42 PM
Hi Dx....

I think so much of the problem is connected to un-healed wounds. I know that sounds like psycho-babble, but I finally started some counseling in April to deal with some deep issues that were crippling me emotionally that happened years ago. I would go months, sometimes years and think that I was "over it", but at certain anniversaries of the pain, or certain situations would trigger the pain to come bubbling to the surface and I would feel as if it had just happened two hours before. I have been doing some "cognitive therapy" which is basically capturing your thoughts and taking control of them rather than allowing them to take you all the way down the negative road, which ultimately leads to drinking.

I know even this time of the year I am approaching (late Nov, early Dec) one of my hardest times ever. Last year I basically had a meltdown after a year of being here. I too read Det's story, and I wonder if there is a lot of pain there that he could benefit from some good counseling. I know I have. Childhood wounds like those are truly crippling. We may learn to be successful and never repeat those things, but the holes in your heart can only be known by the one wounded.

I believe he will come out of this setback as well, and I just say that from my own exeperience. It may not be his last, but they do get fewer and far between. And there are many here such as Satori and Starlight (I'm sure much more) who have found lasting freedom and are so happy it is contagious!

I wish both of you the best, and hold you guys dear. Take care of your heart too. This too shall pass.

Love, Allie

November 7th, 2007, 09:00 PM
Lushy - Thank you for your warm reassurance that I am not insane!

Judie - That is a very touching song. Thank you for sharing.

Nancy - ok, 34 pages is a lot to read. But I found some interesting points.

FindMe - Thank you for your tact. The only point of view one usually has is their own. So project away!

Allie - Thank you for your optimism.

Thank you all of you for being Determinator's friends.

Accountable for Me
November 7th, 2007, 10:19 PM
Thinking of you Dx. I am at both ends of this one. Here I am one with an addiction, and have done very well to overcome it for the most part. Then on the other hand I am married to a person with this addiction and I have been sitting back and watching him kill himself by drinking.

No matter if you are the addicted one or not it hurts everyone involved. I feel empathy for both you and Determinator. It just sucks. They should make alcohol illegal - end of story. There wouldn't be so many families destroyed by this shit. I have watched my own family end up in Hell because of it.

I have faith he will get back on track. Wishing you both lots of love and lots of strength.

November 7th, 2007, 11:48 PM
i also have faith D will get back on track. He and I have talke before, and he has been there to listen. A great guy all the way!

November 8th, 2007, 12:29 AM
Dearest DX,

First of all, we all love both of you. You can always share and seek support here. We know that you love each other and we also understand how difficult it must me from time to time. It really hurts when somone we love is suffering. It is also confusing and frustrating when it seems like the one we love hurts themselves, deliberately. As crazy as it might seem, I do not believe that it is self inflicted pain. I also do not believe that abusing alcohol is always about pleasure seeking. In fact, I wonder how much of the time it is about seeking pleasure rather than wishing to escape pain.

Severe childhood abuse and abandonment are some of the deepest injuries a human can endure, especially at the hands of ones own parents. A child is supposed to be nurtured and protected by their parents. When a child is being abused and neglected in their own home, they are helpless. There is no where to go, no safe place, no one to talk to. Nothing in the world makes any sense. I know this because this type of abuse also happened to me. I have shared my story with D and we have talked about this. No, alcohol is not the answer, in fact, it does make things far worse for us in the present day. But sometimes in the moment we feel that alcohol will take us away from the deep pain, that always lingers.
Sometimes, no matter how much we are loved and how much we love in the present, that horrible pain takes over and we feel that fear and we feel very isolated and alone.

I say this after years of therapy and reading hundreds of books. Years ago, I saw the movie written by Carrie Fisher called Post Cards from the Edge, in that movie, in a drunken fight with her equally drunken mother Carrie says "I drink because I can't feel my life". Wow! That struck a cord with me! What we are feeling when we are drunk is "Not Real Feelings", but the alcohol removes the blocks and at least we "Feel" something strongly. This is not to say that we don't Feel Love for those that we love, but sometimes it is very hard to be in the moment. I am not excusing the drinking, just trying, in my own way to present a way of understanding why and how this happens.

I do believe that sobriety is the answer to living a fulfilled life and I know for sure that Determ believes this with all of his sweet heart. I know he will get back on track. You two are quite a team!

If there is ever anything that I can do for either of you.....just pm me. My thoughts and my love are with you both.


November 8th, 2007, 12:59 AM
AFM - I have no idea how you handle the double stress. You must be one hell of a woman.

Gotta - I love your name. I'll take you optimism.

KateH - You are very eloquent and make sense. Thank you for sharing with me.

Thank you everyone for supporting Determinator.

November 8th, 2007, 01:13 AM
I am truly, in awe, first for my lovely incredible Wife for posting this thread and for caring so tremendously, and secondly for the army of love and support that you have brought to my aid. I WILL be ok and I know it. it's 24 hours AF for me know which is a painful but critical start. I'ts just amazing that after such a great year I can fall off this nasty cliff with hardly a thought. Soon I'll be back to my self and able to lend my hand to others in a rough spot. I really do have a ton to be gratefull for which confounds me even more as to my behaviour. I' sure that it's a combination of things..which is why it's hard to get this enemy in my scope.
in regards to my concerns about the social stigma of being a non drinker perhaps I should develop more of a sense of humor about it. if someone says 'hey lets get a pitcher of beer' and I said 'only if you wanna see me swinging around on the ceiling fan and throwing cue balls throug the window' that ought to shut them up. David Letterman hasn't drank in a long time and has no trouble making jokes about it.
Bootsie, thanks for the info on the landmark site....I will look them up for sure.
thanks again freinds!!!!!! XXXXXXXXXX

November 8th, 2007, 05:27 PM
Wishing you and Detx all the best.

Much love,

Starlight Impress x

November 8th, 2007, 05:53 PM
David Letterman is NO where near the person our Determinator is......

November 8th, 2007, 05:54 PM
Now....where IS that garlic guy.....I need some help in growing the right kind!
Time to plant some!

Justin Time
November 8th, 2007, 07:20 PM

For me, a big part of my identity was tied up in being a drinker. It offered a lot of solace and was the source of a lot of good times, associated closely with "friends" and "happiness" and "good times" and all kinds of other things that I just didn't want to see myself giving up. For me, I had to change the way I thought about alcohol too. That was part of the answer to my "why". I can't speak for Det.

Like Satori says- none of the fears turn out to be true, but that doesn't make them seem less real. I thank God for the multi-pronged MWO program that is working for me and hope it works for you guys.

November 8th, 2007, 11:18 PM
Dx and D

Dx I personally think this is just part of the process....and it sucks. You are the most heartwarming person I have seen on this board trying to help the one you love. So many get fed up and just quit on them.

What I mean as part of the process....we give it up and learn many skills in giving it up. "What to say"...yada and all that. But in the back of our minds we always "wonder" what if? Once the "what if" is gone something does change. Are there some that can moderate and be happy...yes. I have made many great friends here...that are not on the boards anymore....all of us tried the "what if". All of us were successful in cutting our drinking back....but still just not happy with it. It is hard to put into words....but once a relationship is damaged it kinda stays that way esp. with alcohol. You will never be able to look at it with the freedom you did. D's family life def. did damage....and it will probably never be "the Cleavers"....it is kinda the same with drinking.

Give him the space you need to stay sane. You need to stay well. Let him rant and rave....because you know that it is a matter of days before he is himself again.

I do now look at people who just simply don't drink with awe and admiration. I "watch" those who do drink and really have to think to myself "do I want that". There is always the part of the evening where I envy them...free flowing...feeling good. The next day though I get the horror stories...and the one who doesn't usually drink at all is the one I am picking up off the bathroom floor.

Take a good hard look at what it really is. It is a drug bottom line. It will cause the most sane person to do stupid things. And since D...wants to see the humor in it...just look at the ads for booze. Could they come up with anything more stupid to get us to drink? Right now I am enjoying the beer ads that pour out "nature"...REALLY....so if I drink does that mean I will feel like I am out in the woods roughing it? I use it as good entertainment to and from work...because they can not give you one "good" reason to drink.

Enough of my rant on that...hang in there. You both are committed and will make it through this!


November 9th, 2007, 09:44 AM
Hi there

Determinatrix, I hope you feel that this is a support site for you too. I hope you don't overlook your own needs because Determinator is in a crisis. You have needs too.

I think it's a little overwhelming to think about a lifetime without alcohol. I think it's sometimes more useful to think of stopping as temporary even if you know deep down you won't be able to handle it ever. Take it one day at a time.

Determinator: Have you read Alan Carr's Easyway to control alcohol? It addresses a lot of the psychological issues. He makes a convincing argument that the need to have alcohol in social situations is just an illusion. I know he is right. Have you ever smoked? if so, you know when you are a smoker you have the illusion that you need a cigarette to do every simple task. There's something similar operating with alcohol. Anyway, if you have not read the book, I strongly advise you do.

I am impressed that Satori can continue to go to bars and just drink non-alcoholic drinks. For many people, that would be very difficult. I would avoid going to places that are centered around booze.

Your idea of making a joke when people suggest booze sounds good to me. You seem to have a great sense of humor. Remember, people want to be with you, the alcohol should be secondary.

November 10th, 2007, 06:26 AM
Hi Dtx and Det, you are both such blessings to all of us! I have faith that Det will again succeed in being AF, with patience, a sense of humor and persistence, especially with Dtx's infallible support and the inspiration of friends at MWO. Take good care, both of you, with my prayers and tremendous respect, j

November 10th, 2007, 11:10 PM
Dear Dx
I have been trying to post a response to you all week but have been so busy I can barely keep up. I'm sorry for being late.

You asked a most difficult question - WHY? God, don't we all wish we knew the answer! What I can tell you is that you have to trust us. I know how much you love and cherish and care for Determinator. He is so lucky to have you by his side. You have to help him as you are so gracefully doing, but you also have to trust him. Trusting us doesn't mean that we won't drink too much at times and do things we regret as a result. Trust us that we are working so hard - so terribly hard - not to. And the damage we do nowadays is much less than the damage we may have done in the past. You know as much as anyone on these boards how much we all hate this.

It's going to happen. Sometimes even the best of us will have challenges too big for us and slip. That's the way it is. WHY? Because it just is. You have done so much more than any spouse could do - you have given such love and support to D. We often talk about our pain as alcoholics and too often ignore the pain of those who love us and are trying to help us. I personally think you are incredible. I'm sorry for your pain also.

I managed to type many words without answering your question. Sorry about that. Determinator will be OK. Trust him and trust his resolve to fight this. He can do it - especially with you by his side.

You two are a hell of cute couple. Peace to both of you.

November 15th, 2007, 10:28 PM

November 15th, 2007, 10:41 PM
This from my lovely Dx (her mwo account is having problems):

Det Honey, I am so glad that you know that you are not alone. You are
mine, all pain and all joy.

Star thank you.

Justin - I understand the identity issue, as well as the pomp and ceremony.
Iit's amazing how much I did not notice how alcohol is so entwined with
being young and cool (beer commercials), or mature and well-to-do (winerys
and food pairings).

Nancy A lifetime without alchohol is a disturbing thought, even for me.
No celebratory champagne toasts on New Years? No trying the $300 bottle of
wine someone breaks out on a special occasion? No sippin on port while
smoking a new birth cigar? These are times when I think Mods would be good.
The difference in these examples is being a partaker, as opposed to showing
up to the party as a drinker. I think the term Mods has meant (for Det)
that he can drink up uptil he is out of hand. Unfortunately the alcohol is
already affecting the brain and it is a tough time to be making clear

Mags For the most part, I do trust him. I trust that he wants this and
have seen the hard work he has accomplished in the last year.
I have given up any thought of control beyond inspiring and encouraging.
I know that he has to find his own path.
Thank you for kind words. They really helped.

Thank you all for your support and friendship.

November 16th, 2007, 01:02 AM

November 16th, 2007, 05:08 PM
All I can say is that Determinator is one hell of a lucky guy!!!

November 16th, 2007, 07:36 PM
Oh Yes He Is!!!!

December 15th, 2007, 02:16 PM
hi everyone there are three lables that i cherish.Recovering alcoholic,sober and in the moment of my 24 hrs.I have 21 yrs of sobriety it is just a number.it does not keep me sober.the beautifull people who if i stumble will reach out there hand to me and hold me close.Unconditional love another lable i cherish.yesterday is used for storing memories so you can approch tomorrow wiser,when tomorrow gets here it is today,and if you are sober in the moment, it is your heaven for the next 24 hours.a label goes on a piece of clothing.when you are sober no one can tell you who you are.you know who you are no one can take that from you.all you beautiful people out there we love you. GB (me)

December 15th, 2007, 09:16 PM
Hi Finding myself.
When you say it the labeling that bothers you and AA.scared you.well i think when i was labled as a recovering alcoholic in AA it was the best moment of my life.It showed me how to live without booze.It has giving me 21 yrs of 24 hours a day and has taught me how to stay sober,another label i cherish.there may be other issues that are upsetting you.Lables do not upset me,Alcohol sure the hell does.All of us are hear for you.Anythime a addicted person reaches out for me i will take there hand.Finding my self have a peaceful night.GB (me).