My marraige is over

[Rusty]

Re: My marraige is over

Hi autumn!:hug:

I am doing great, thanks! Happily sober and life is really good! I admire you so much for your level-headedness through this quagmire. Yes, please post your post in the Toolbox! :happy2:

I drank through my dad's death in 2004 and my brother's death in 2006...both of them were so sudden, and to be honest, I knew better....that alcohol is a DEPRESSANT. My mom tried to tell me, "don't drink when you're sad, you'll only cry harder." YUP. That's what I did.

My drinking took the blame for a heck of a lot stuff. When the drinking stopped, where could the blame go? So he vented his anger and hurt at me instead.

This is just my very humble opinion, but I think your drinking was a VERY EASY excuse for him not to work at your marriage. It would justify his "right" to find another woman, or another hobby, or just not be present in the marriage at all. The fact that you saw a therapist and he was not embracing it tells me he wanted out of your marriage way before your drinking ever got to the escalation point.


I post on The One Step At A Time Thread and I have posted often about my mom's sister...who has been sober for about 9.5 years now, after 30 years of daily drinking, 3 drunken driving charges, and a horrific suicide attempt. She finally went to rehab when my uncle was going to "institutionalize" her. BUT...in rehab, therapy and counseling were mandatory and he had to go...even though the rehab was on the other side of the US. He had to admit he was definitely part of her problem. He had physically abused her in their marriage, breaking her jaw early on and verbal abuse was a daily routine. He had to admit that his attempts to "help" her were doing just the opposite. He had to take ownership of the destruction of their marriage. Like you, she got a voice, and like Jackie said, their marriage shifted because she finally had the confidence and the clarity, and SERENITY to defuse his behavior. .....

I hope he leaves his spiteful inner child at home!

Yes, this is what my uncle had to do. The tables have turned for my aunt and uncle...my uncle was always very arrogant and bragged that he had never been to a doctor...well that has come back to bite him in the butt. He has metastised prostate cancer, because he had never had an annual physical. Now, he has to rely on my aunt for her help. He told me the other day, "I am grateful for her sobriety." He has never said that before! I think your husband will find his life to be very empty without you, and I think some of his anger has to do with the fact that he sees you as being stronger than he is...you quit drinking and can function with a clear, confident head. He must be envious. Carry on, dear woman. We are here for you.:love:

[empyr3al]

Re: My marraige is over

Its a bitter pill to swallow when someone blames you so easily because everything is because of alcohol. Such a lie in most situations. Alcohol is a result of problems that underlie the AL. Its abusive for people to just conveniently blame alcohol. And yes there are power shifts that happen when sobriety occurs and then the other person has to learn to defend themselves or they feel threatened ... they have not spent the time to work on themselves to resolve their own issues. Its utterly dispicable to blame alcohol alone.
[MENTION=14176]autumn[/MENTION], I will check my outbox and see if it was sent. Otherwise a different edit of it is in my personal thread https://www.mywayout.org/community/j...-properly.html . The PM has a little more comprehensive information. After a bit I figured we are in two different shoes but they do parallel and you have much longer sobriety than I and continued your "empty" relationship for 3+ years sober. So I put it in my thread. Its the last post in it. The PM is a little more specific but very close. It didn't send for some reason. I'll get around to some of the other content that I had added if I can remember it all.

[autumn]

Re: My marraige is over

Thanks Rusty & empyr,

Everything you've said rings so true. Rusty, I am so proud for your aunt. 9.5 years is an incredible achievement. And it was a god send that he was made to face up to his issues in therapy. And what an amazing woman to stand by him after all he has put her through. Are they still together?

Empyr, I’ll have another look for the pm.

We had a really productive session with the therapist. He did try to explain to ExH that although he always dismissed my un-happiness, it was real for me. And did cause me great distress. ExH always called me a drama queen and controlled the conversations. It was perfect when I was drunk, because he could blame me for drinking and refuse to talk to me. When I sobered up, we had a problem, yep, I found my voice again. So instead he would wind me up to shouting stage and then shut down the conversation because I was shouting and he wasn't putting up with it!! I'm guilty for biting, but it became a vicious circle. He had a new exscuse, my anger and frustration. I only wanted to be heard by him.

My ExH (we've only been separated 5 weeks, ExH seems odd to type) comes from a really 'stiff upper lip family' where talking about emotions is taboo. There was always a permanent elephant in the room. And all they used to do was throw a bloody table cloth over it!

We employed his son, who caused the most horrendous problems for us, almost daily, and he refused to sack him. I begged, I pleaded and I cried. I feel I have spent the last year crying. He was the employee from hell who had been sacked from 8 jobs previously for being lazy and pleasing himself. So for him to be the bosses son, he really took the p*ss, and dad let him get away with murder.

He even slept with another member of staff & broke up her family unit! And lied about it for 6 months! It was so so bad i was leaving home daily to escape the screaming rows over his sons behaviour, and staying elsewhere. I was living in a renovation project with no heating, hot water or cooking facilities for 6 months, because that was preferable than being at home with the rows. And still he refused to sack his son. I was diagnosed as on the verge of a mental breakdown and a nasty stomach ulcer, and he still refused to give up on his son.

So yes, when I read it back in black & white, he had given up on us. Because no matter how I begged for him to stop risking our marriage over his sons behaviour, he refused to acknowledge that 'we' were in crisis. It was all my fault for being angry and shouting. No one-else’s. I am heartbroken by his refusal to see how his son's behaviour ripped us apart.

And now I am the bad guy, because I quit on our marriage and ripped our future apart. He believes he stood by my drinking so I should stand by his son. The cause of our demise was my anger, not his son’s behaviour. We are at stalemate.

He forgets I DID quit my drinking, and refuses to see his son never changed his behaviour.

I have done so much work on myself. I had to stay sober through all the chaos. I have questioned why I drank too. There were many reasons, but the huge one was I was desperately lonely. He refuses to do any work on himself, as he is right, and nothing to fix.

I don’t know where I go from here. But I am grateful that he came to the therapist on Friday. But I think that is because he wants to save the business’s more. I have made it quite clear that if things don’t change (his hostility) then I want them all sold. I am devastated, but I can’t work with him whilst he is still so angry with me. He needs to own his part in this awful mess. And so does his son.

So thanks so much again for your support, and kind words. This is a super testing time, but HELL am I drinking at it. It can piss off, I've got enough problems right now!!

much love xxx

[Rusty]

Re: My marraige is over

Hey [MENTION=14176]autumn[/MENTION]:hug:, yes, my aunt and uncle are still together and enjoying life like they NEVER have before. They go on at least one cruise per year, and they take numerous long trips throughout the year. My aunt is full of life and love. When she was drinking, she would get really mean and I was the recipient of that anger several times.

I understand exactly what you mean about your husband not seeing his son's destructive behavior. I was in a relationship with a man who had five kids from his first marriage and I broke up with him because of his daughter's manipulative and conniving behavior towards me. She was his favorite daughter and she could do no wrong in his eyes.

He forgets I DID quit my drinking, and refuses to see his son never changed his behaviour.

I have done so much work on myself. I had to stay sober through all the chaos. I have questioned why I drank too. There were many reasons, but the huge one was I was desperately lonely. He refuses to do any work on himself, as he is right, and nothing to fix.

I have made it quite clear that if things don’t change (his hostility) then I want them all sold. I am devastated, but I can’t work with him whilst he is still so angry with me. He needs to own his part in this awful mess. And so does his son.

Good move. I agree with you!


I know you are devastated about the break up of your marriage, autumn, but please trust me, you will be far better off with him. You can't change your husband, just like I couldn't change the man I was dating, and he isn't going to give up his son. I don't know if you have kids of your own, but I do not. I'm single and I have never been married, but my first nephew was born when I was 11 years old and now I have 34 nieces and nephews. I've done a lot of babysitting in my lifetime. The man I was dating claimed that since I never had kids, I didn't understand them, especially his daughter, so I had no credibility in his eyes. He was crushed when I broke up with him and begged me for THREE years to come back but I didn't. I was lonely, and you probably will be too, but you will have peace of mind knowing you won't have to care about his despicable son. You're a lovely person and you deserve to be treated like a queen, and you will find someone who will treasure you like we do here.:heartbeat:

[empyr3al]

Re: My marraige is over

You two, [MENTION=14176]autumn[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1214]Rusty[/MENTION] draw so many parallels to what was going on in my family. My father in law and mother in law ran a business employing the father in laws son as well and he messed it up so bad. The son's wife was threatening, the neighbour were claiming he was a child molester, yet his son could do no wrong (court, had to life under conditions and no contact, cell phone confiscated and searched, expensive lawyers... all very creapy and especially with the company you keep).

And what is it what my father in law is not an alcoholic. OH, because he didn't drink while he was raising a family and now he's retired so he drinks every other day whiskey (a third to half a 60oz). Bullshit you are not alcoholic. Everyday. He just does it every other day at HOME. He goes out and drink at his club the other days. But no none of them are alcoholics. I'm the one thats got the problem because I admitted it. My mother and father in law both had their spouses die around the same time so they are married and the feuds where insane.

Back to the brother in law, we were using my facebook account to capture screenshots of harassment and verbal assault and threats as she didn't realize I wasn't blocked. It was insane! Like living on Coronation Street. Stuborn as hell.

At only ONE point did my father in law actually asked about alcohol and what to do and said he might be an alcoholic, so I proceeded to give some advice and he shot back as though he knew it all. I think it was a trap for me that was setup and he wasn't really remorseful for his behaviour. Meanwhile I'm the one with all the psychologists and rehabs and therapy and a million AA meetings. Oh you know best. Piss off. He was very very different while drunk and I could spot it in a heart beat. I spent very little time inside the house. I would spend hours cleaning the yard, the bushes, the pool, the gutters, shoveling snow, washing cars... anything to be away from this situation and watching extreme drunkeness. I was dragged to this house because my wife didn't trust me alone. No wonder projects never got finished at our house, because I'd spend 8 hours of a day fixing their house. So don't tell me I'm lazy. Now once in a while I had a 6 pack in the trunk so it was an excuse to be outside to be honest and have a beer without ridicule and withdrawals in front of them. The business thing holy smokes. Emotions... no only judgments. To see how two faced my mother in law was.... trashing a person before they came over and then being their best friend. WOW. Father in law just sits on the couch drink his whisky watching his 70" TV all freaking day long and is gonna die from what he's doing. Diabetic. Pot belly. No fitness. Oh but he switches to less salt so he's doing something better for his health..... right. Because of all this stress, my mother in law would unload "empty talk" about her threatening to leave him because of his son's behaviour and his disrespect for his health and laziness. So yeah, whether its financial they are together or they just like to fight because thats all they know. I think she is honestly hoping he will die before her so she gets most of the loot. So disfunctional.

To be honest, I'm kind of relieved i'm not doing that shite anymore. I miss my wife dearly but its so BS and she was loving and nurturing but there was some evil trickling across the entire board.

Sorry [MENTION=14176]autumn[/MENTION] that you had to live in a reno project to avoid family. Thats like being homeless! Emotionally blank people or people even without reason bother me. Too emotional is a problem but acknowledging emotions and understanding what the hell you are saying to the other person and respect them because you are hurting the heck out of the other person. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Language usage is huge... The Coulda Shoulda Woulda's. You should. You need too. All very toxic and alienating language. If you are not a match, some people compliment each other and work as a team even though they are very different, but they are aware and respect each others opinions and that some need time alone or time together and give each other the space they need and don't spill stress into blame. Others need someone more aligned to themselves so they feel understood by their partner. This can delve into codependency and that is a dangerous thing. Its something thats directly related to alcoholism and occurs in like 90% of relationships. I'll talk about it if it becomes relevant. Its is actually because alcohol is the crux and the son is the other crux. Guilt, Shame, ... make a structure for the other to justify their behaviours. Forgiveness and grace are often forgotten and once damaged its very very VERY hard to repair. You have to want too. If you feel its only about money and you will live the rest of your life alone empty.... I feel bad for you.

Like I said it takes both sides respecting each others opinion. Do what you FEEL is best, and look also at reality. Tolerance is a difficult thing. You cannot change another person, you can introduce them to things and lead them but..... we are the summary of our past and conditioned and really people don't change completely unless they can identify with some place in the past they felt they were that person, calm, content, peaceful. This is where hidden PTSD can lurk and confronting it takes a ton of courage. If after years of marriage and you knew this even before and drank over it, it probably wasn't right in the first place.

Now I don't want to give you direct advice or you to take my opinion as what you should do AT ALL. Because I know only what you have written. And I don't have any degree's, just raised by a Masters in Social Work (my goodness that messes with your head, because making friends becomes nearly impossible because you speak almost a different language). More on that another time,.... friends would come over and just watch how we as a family unit worked and talked in my teens and early 20's and then later on in life they said it was something they had never seen before.... more on that another time.

Wishing you the best and wise level headed decisions. Hug.

[empyr3al]

Re: My marraige is over

Hi Empyr,

I've just checked for a PM and I couldn't find it. I've got to go out shortly but I will look again later or PM you

much love
xxx

It didn't send for some reason, its gone... lost in the temp files on my pc somewhere. Maybe closed the wrong window as I have tons open. It was about medications and how they affect you. And a ton about passive aggressive behaviours. You'll get the content as I troll your thread You sound like you don't particularly need meds, but I did allude too hitting the switch where you don't even think about AL using some medication and walking past it in the store you feel no anger, no temptation, no memory of how it made you feel. You know its there but you don't care, nor even wonder if you care... Its like a blank. Like looking at a cloud, if you choose to imagine, thats up to you but otherwise most of the time you don't really pay attention to whether the cloud looks like a horse or a pig or whatever, its just there. You become indifferent. But nothing will stop you from disliking drunk idiots!

[available]

Re: My marraige is over

Available, I am so sorry yours was so tough that you drank through it. That must a very dark and awful time for you. I am so glad you are in a much better place now and stronger. How are you doing? I am determined not to drink. I absolutely will not go back to day one again. When I fell off the wagan last time, after a 6 month quit, I fell so hard and fast it was terrifying. I imploded. I will not do that to myself again, I nearly died. And I'm truly grateful for my 'special circumstances' hospital stay that they arranged for me whilst I detoxed. I was in for a week, and I was super lucky to have had that amazing gift of help immediately and for free. So I am quietly strong in my quit.
It doesnt stop Al from knocking at the door and trying to have a word, I'm strong enough in my resolve to tell it to piss off! I will not do a day 1 again, I have a choice.

x

I hope you are doing okay Autumn and battling through (not literally). My life now after nearly 4 years sober is fantastic. I have met a wonderful man who i have been seeing for nearly a year and a very light drinker. He is supportive and is respectful, none of which i had when i was drinking by any man i was with. I have so many good reasons to not drink and they far outweigh the reasons to drink. You sound strong in your quit though just emotionally wrecked which will get better with time. As long as you protect your quit then you are able to get through this mess. Al will always try and get in, it still does try and entice me on occasion but as you say Autumn, we make the choice to drink or not and for me there is no choice.

Take care of yourself.

[autumn]

Re: My marraige is over

Hi Rusty,
I am so glad you are in a much better space and life is treating you well. I am quite a tough cookie in my outlook and very pragmatic. Looking back we have been dying a slow death for a while, but it still hurts to face it.

I hear you re the kids thing. I have been in the same situation too. I don’t have any kids, so you’re right, my opinion never stood for nowt. He came at it with his son from the school of soft talks. So it was always “please try harder” and “now promise you won’t do it again”. And the selfish little twat, did do it again, usually 2 days later! He cannot face the fact that he has always had an utter blind spot with his kids. That coupled with a large dose of guilt as they had a rotten child hood being brought up by his Ex. He left her, and he has never gotten over the guilt of leaving the kids.

I did ask how he would feel if it was ‘my child causing him such distress that he had to leave home?’ and he dismissed it as irrelevant because I didn’t have any!! Give me strength! Hahaha.....not!

I’ve been saying the serenity prayer quite a lot of late!!

So I’ve decorated the flat, and I’ve got a few of my bits around me, so I’m starting to feel settled. And, yep, I will get there. One day at a time!
Much love
xxxxx

[autumn]

Re: My marraige is over

Hi Available,

I'm so glad that life is treating you well. The new man sounds wonderrful. A light drinker I would be fine with, I can do pubs occasionally and I can have booze around the house with it not bothering me. I hope it really continues to bring you happiness.

And it so true, there is every reason to carry on with this wonderful sober life. Because why would we choose to return to chaos and misery?

much love
xxxxx

[autumn]

Re: My marraige is over

Hi Empyr,

WOW! Your post about your ExW's family was full on. Thank heavens that you are not in that toxic environment any more. It sounds awful being made to go there against your will. Especially surrounded by such awful hypocritical people. Isn’t it funny how we never factor in our partners family dynamics or how they treat each other and interact. Especially at family gatherings or whilst drunk. It is such a strong indicator. Whilst we are deciding if they’re ‘the one’. Do you still care for them as you seem quite miffed and angry that are still drinking and carrying on behaving badly?

My ExH’s family just did not do emotions. Expressing emotions are taboo. It’s the Elephant in the room. If you Don’t argue or disagree and it will go away. So ExH never stood a chance. He doesn’t know how to be emotional or debate stuff. Any debating is seen as an accusing attack or confrontation. So nothing ever gets resolved and that allows the destruction to set in. And yes, it is very hard to pull back from the abyss when you are so angry and hurting for not being heard.

I have accepted and looked at my part I have played in the demise of our marriage. But the cold hard facts are, we never argued over anything else. Not even one of our businesses being shut by a malicious neighbour. It was just his sons despicable behaviour. If his son had treated us decently, we might have stood a chance. But we are where we are, and going forward is the only option

I’m soo not a meds person. Although I found Ant-abuse incredibly useful back in the beginning of all my quits and struggles. I am dealing with my journey by meditation, relaxation and a few other holistic approaches, which are helping. Sound therapy is really helping my mood and sanity, it’s awesome. I’m doing all I can to stay grounded and ‘in the moment’.

How did you get on with the AA? I hated it. Many a time I brought a bottle of vodka on the way home as it had depressed the heck of me so badly. I really have a problem with the way they sell sobriety.
Much kindness
xxxx

[empyr3al]

Re: My marraige is over

[MENTION=14176]autumn[/MENTION], I do still care because somewhere they are good people. But it was crazy. It wasn't even family gatherings, this was 2-3 times a week for 8 hours. All my free time. We had one vehicle so there was no independence for me, kinda like a controlled trap. Totally psychological abuse. She was very insecure about her weight. I am fit and can do and eat almost anything. We are actually very much a mismatch. Arguing isn't in my books a way to solve a problem. Debate without feeling attacked is difficult when the onus is on you because you drank or drink. And he, wow, how dare you threaten his son. People can agree to disagree, but there has to be a meeting ground between the too. In terms of emotions, what I learned from rehabs was "check in". You use a word to describe how you feel... and "fine or good" don't count. You then talk about physical, emotional, psychological and then what you plan to do that day or night. So its a mental check that you share. I actually have check lists that I mark for each day that measures if my day was balanced. ... I'll scan it and upload it later. Its about 20 things like check marks for reading, meditating, snacks, breakfast, exercise, relax, chores, socializing, etc.

In regards to AA (not to offend anyone) but its really really bad for me. I don't need to live in the past and remember it all the time. Only some types of meetings were actually helpful. The CBT non AA group I attend is way different. 2 of the rehabs (well 1 full AA and another a kinda hybrid of CBT and AA). And one full on no AA. I hated AA, but did about 120 meetings in 60 days (2 a day). Though it did keep me sober during the day because I didn't want to go drunk. But yes I would often buy vodka on the way home and figured out places to actually hide the bottle in the truck behind paneling so my wife wouldn't find it. Many a cut I got reaching elbow depth through sharp plastic, praying it would not move and you would hear the sound of a glass bottle hit metal or slide. AA was never meant to be what it actually is now. The founders did not intend this to be the way it is. I studied a lot of the history of how alcoholism and the temperance movement and all sorts of people the washingtonians (pre AA). Its a sad state of affairs and I don't need to be reminded of it all the time. I don't want to forever believe I am an alcoholic. I do believe science has devised cures for some people. It has less than 5% success rate after 1 year, and then you never know its probably 1% after 5. The shame is horrific.

Meds are where we may differ as I out of sheer desperation to quit; decided that fine... I need a medication. Proven studies and a broad range of them have been performed and you can hit 50% or higher odds of continued sobriety, so long as you participate in the mental therapy along with it. Thats where CBT somes in. Its not negative, its positive encouragement and tools. I have tried every one of the drugs that are used on label and off label. I have found the right combo that I could give a flying f about drink. I don't even think about it. I just do my thing. Actually its kind of made me want to change careers and look at pharma and neurology (though I hate the industry practices). I can read language in papers and studies and have done everything to have sensors on my head and computers reading body temp, pulse, sweat, brain activity and learning to meditate to calm myself down as I was really really high strung. Its called biofeedback and is simpler than a fMRI or MRI. AA has cliche's for meds, if 1 pill works, I might as well take 4. This is an old concept that still lingers. Much has been done in the way of the first 72 hours, and what you need to repair youself, like B1 deficiency (thiamine). I chose pharma because I kept lapsing. It works for me. Whatever increases the odds, and I have (shortly won't have) benefits that I pay 0$ for like 700$ in drugs a month, down from $1000, to about $400, soon to be the key ones that will be about $100 a month... The ones I know work for me. I have about 4 to 6 months supply of the expensive ones in case of emergency or lapse and repair. My addition specialist doctor has weened me off the expensive ones and moved to out of patented ones that are astronomically cheaper. Sometimes older drugs work better than newer ones. Antabuse is banned in Canada, and if you want if (disulifram) a pharmacist has to do it daily one pill at a time, actually I think that's not even legal anymore. It can kill you if you try to out drink it. So instead we use repair drugs and anti craving meds. Finding the sweet spot is hard. Thats what I have to say about meds, though you are not a meds person. I was a 40 oz a day vodka drinker at times and couldn't walk down stairs or so much as use a spoon. Gabapentin is for me the switch as its known.

That being said, it works for me. Now I use meditation, and body scan meditation. I learned a lot about techniques and have actually made my own, nearly hypnotic relaxation guided meditations for my (ex)wife as an anniversary gift after we separated. I used to talk herself to sleep moving energy through the body on a daily basis. I have some really good links for them, just gotta figure out which folder. Reading a book doesn't quite get me. I get half way through. Tried NLP (neuro-linguistic programming) which was popular and a trend back in the 70's or 80's. I am an excellent reader and can speak very well, so I would read chapters to my wife while she was doing something else. I think she liked my voice and how I talked and this was us trying to find common ground. (that and I was not drinking while speaking lol). A similar language as I had grown far far further in what I understood with all the therapy. We made it half way through the book and its hard sometimes to practice what you read when its so easy to slip back into old behaviours.

I have an unfortunate problem especially when I was drinking... I could probably handle it now, but touch while asking me questions distracts me a ton. My senses are super strong, hearing I can echo locate sounds. I was a professional leak locator for swimming pools for a decade and find leaks 3 feet under concrete with my ear to within 3 inches. So my senses are high. So that caused some issues with intimacy because wow I won't understand a damn thing you say to me while I am feeling a hair on my leg move. Now as I said I could probably handle it now that I'm sober and medicated a touch, lol. Hypersensitivity. Can't recall the exact name of it. I know what object is being moved and where and what materials are hitting what. Its really uncanny and super distracting so I sleep with a fan on to block out random sounds. White noise I guess.

Back to the the topic of the thread, that was a tangent. Having a 3rd party involved in between an intimate loving relationship causes rifts and you lose that connection. There has to be time for the two without thought or talk of the third party like his son. The types of love in latin (eros, philios and agape). There are more but those are the 3. Eros is what you are supposed to have with your husband, philios is brotherly love (care and compassion), agape is generalized love. I can see from what you've described that you are missing the most important type of love. I am too, but I am strong willed and positive and know at one point out of sheer happenstance I will meet someone like me. I'm still young, ~40 with no children so its complicated to find either a woman with kids that is stable or an independent woman. I find people really really shallow most of the time. One relationship to another like trading pokemon or something.

I have a very psychoanalytical family structure where psychology and introspection is inherent and thats why my friends used to be fascinated by our (parents divorced) mothers house and what we talked about.

Stay strong!