Indifference

[bleep]

Indifference

Fear not Ted - The only way to ensure your theory can stand up to any scrutiny is to let it see the light of day.

Also fear not on the big pharma front - baclofen has been around for too long for any patents to apply, so we are safe there.

[Theodore]

Indifference

And OA may not be conventionally handsome, but what with his mastery of jazz piano and cardiology he is 'quite a catch'- I think that's the quote. Ah photographic memory- you serve me well

[Theodore]

Indifference

yea- I know- I just want to be cautious for a little while

[bleep]

Indifference

Throw caution to the wind my friend. Nothing to be gained from timidity.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Indifference

We are cross posting, Teddy!

I had to add a caveat to my last post:

I have yet to see bac *not work* for anyone. I have seen people unable or unwilling to take bac, in enough quantity or with enough quality of thought that it didn't work. I have not seen one, not a single one, that took bac reasonably and with some forethought and with a commitment to the medication fail to find at the very least, improvement in the quantity of their over-consumption of alcohol. And in most cases, those of us who needed to take an awful lot of bac to find indifference, and had the ability to manage the consequences of the side effects, well, we found indifference. I say most ONLY because there are several people on HDB atm, active on the forum, who have not yet found indifference. But they will, all of them, and very soon.

SO. Here's my opinion about why bac doesn't *work* for some people.
-The side effects may be onerous and debilitating. Maybe. They can also be managed, in most, but not all, cases.
-For any type of recovery, any very dramatic changes in life to work, there has to be the room to be able to manage the changes.
-There are physical limitations. Not many, but some, for sure. Bac has a profound affect/effect on our bodies.
-Commitment. To taking it until it works. 'Tis true.

Otherwise, it seems to me, it works. Right?

This is just off the top of my head, since I'm simply procrastinating the rest of my chores. Now I've gotta get bac to them. And this time I'm going to stay gone for a while! Carry on my fellow bac-ers!

[Theodore]

Indifference

I agree with you ne. I wouldn't like to moralise about tenacity, because it was pretty easy for me to get through the side effects, though I did often fall asleep when I was revising etc. I pushed on because I felt I had nothing to loose. But I do think there may be some people who have certain comorbid conditions- maybe bi-polar, schizopherenia, 'personality disorders' etc for whom baclofen alone may not be effective, but who know's at this point?

[Seethepony]

Indifference

By the way, the other great thing about only needing a relatively small dose is that you don't have to worry about titting up or down at all. I ran out shortly before Christmas... predictably I ended up getting sozzled every night for a few days. A new shipment of baclofen arrived around New Year. Which was a big bloody relief. There was a slight spaced out sensation for a few minutes when I took my 25 mg, but it was more pleasant than anything else. The knowledge that I was effortlessly on my way out of a boozy quagmire added to the pleasure of taking it.

Of course, the downside of hitting the switch so easily is that you have nothing whatsoever helpful to say to people who are struggling at 350 mg...

[Theodore]

Indifference

That's good to know Pony. I've got a pretty steady supply from Dr Chick, so hoepfully I won't need to drink.

I agree Bleep. It's not that I doubt for a moment that you guys will understand and appreciate what I've written, and I owe these ideas to you as much as anybody. But, although drug companies cannot patent baclofen, they can theoritcally patent research ideas and thereby prevent them from being carried out (as far as understand). That would be extremely unlikely given the circumstances, but it dosen't hurt to be prudent.

Also, I don't want to put undue pressure on the good, and open minded scientists I have spoken to- these people are the exact opposite of C.U.N.Ts- they are selfless heroes, and need time to work things out, and navigate the dogmatic scientific community on their own, without interference from a precocious, 24 year old student

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Indifference

It is for that reason, I think, that Dr. OA has applied for the patent. Just the application itself precludes anyone from using HIS theories in order to make money, without paying him substantially.

Go, Dr. OA!

hmmmm. Teddy. Already on touchy ground with that whole reference to mental illnesses. Careful!

Again, I'd start with the evidence that shows that baclofen doesn't work. (Where is it? For whom doesn't it work, exactly?) With that observation firmly in place we can hypothesize to our heart's content about the reasons... Right?

[Theodore]

Indifference

You'd have to refer to Dr Chick for that evidence Ne. But, true, a lot of it is inconclusive at this point.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Indifference

I'll start to give you an example of what I'm looking for:

Br***: pre-existing high blood pressure, did not respond to medications she was already on to treat it. Concerned that bac spiked the blood pressure further (but ironically not as concerned about the drinking) so discontinued bac.

Persona: VERY frightened of vomiting. Bac and beer together make her vomit. Discontinued bac.

Cinders: Several attempts at using baclofen, as well as many, many other treatment methods and medications. Has pre-existing health conditions, which were clearly exacerbated by baclofen. Also had horrendous side effects that would have incapacitated even the heartiest constitution. Yet continued to try, for years, against all odds, until she finally had to stop with baclofen treatment due to the fact that it was seriously contraindicated. Miss you Cinders, hope you're well.

Some guy xyz: (this is actually a type, imho) Convinced he was going to get there better and more quickly than anyone else ever, took two weeks off of work, took gobs of bac, expected magic instead of a miracle. Quit when it affected his personality, his workout and his looks. Is now in holistic looking for answers there.

There are many more.

I believe that Dr. Chick stops at 100mg? Or perhaps he did until very recently, meaning in 2011. I think he finally, after months of indecision, supported Otter and Otter's wife, who was very, very ill from this disease, in their decision to give her more than *his* recommended amount.

I had to take 340mg. Glad it wasn't up to him! I'm taking 220mg now. Again. Thankful.

Sorry, Teddy. I do like you. I just don't like the implication that alcoholism is anything other than a disease related to a chemical imbalance in the brain. I'm not crazy. I was very, very sick.
I know you know.
xo

[Theodore]

Indifference

I would go so far to say that most people who stopped taking baclofen should probably have stuck it out. But, again- I'm not one to judge. I don't have kids to look after or a job to hold down, and I've not worked directly with alcoholic patients.

[Theodore]

Indifference

Again- I agree with practically everything you say. But Chick is a good man. He has at no point said to me (or anybody else, as far as I know) that you must not go beyond 100; it would be better that you continued drinking yourself to death. He simply urges caution, explains the risks of higher doses, and states, quite correctly, that he is not himself in a position to prescribe any doses As far as I understand, it is illegal for him to supply prescribe more than 100mg in the UK, and it would be fairly futile for him to agitate against the law at this point. And in my case, as with many other of Chick's patients, slow titration and low doses were the best course of action. Of course, he realises that some people will choose to titrate up anyway, and quite rightly too, but it would be irresponsible for him to say, 'go up to 500mg, you'll be fine, there are no side effects.' We also have to remember that Chick was the one who publisihed OA case study, in his own journal, and he is the only al specialist in uk who has been farsighted enough to prescribe baclofen. I would, quite frankly, be absolutely fucked without him!

[bleep]

Indifference

Theodore;1127555 wrote: ...

explains the risks of higher doses,

...

What does he say are the risks associated with higher doses?

[Theodore]

Indifference

Also- Ne- I like you too and everything I say is said with due reverence to you as a senior member- and a more experienced, former alcoholic. It's really helpful to hear about other people expereinces here because I haven't had the time to read through everybody's stories. Anyway- going to see my proff now