Baclofen and Anxiety

[Otter]

Baclofen and Anxiety

And then there is this article.

Names You Need To Know In 2011: Addiction 'Cure' Baclofen - Forbes

Prophetic?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Fellas, I can't wait to play! See you tomorrow morning! (btw, can I be the devil's advocate?)

[Otter]

Baclofen and Anxiety

From the point of view of the big picture, couldn't/shouldn't all of the resources currently devoted to ineffectively treating the consequences of alcoholism be devoted to avoiding the disease in the first place? And perhaps to solving other of the pressing problems we have in the world today?

Of course. You must go to the AA thread here which attracted several thousand views if you really want an insight into AA and what people here feel about it.

You mention the big picture which is something I have been going on about here for what seems an eternity.

It matters not what you call the "reason" for drinking. It is not just "mental illness" which stems from the amygdala. So does memory. We look at the amygdala here because it relates to bad things. It also has to do with good memories and good behaviour and alcohol has its place in that as well. We remember via our amygdala the good time we had with alcohol. But then the alcohol damages the amygdala and we cannot produce our own Gaba B and become dependent on alcohol to replace it. And so it goes.

IS ANYBODY OUT THERE LISTENING TO THIS?

[Otter]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Ne/Neva Eva;1162889 wrote: Fellas, I can't wait to play! See you tomorrow morning! (btw, can I be the devil's advocate?)

No, please don't I am too fragile for that at the moment. I need your support in this.:l

[Otter]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Have a look at Pare's credentials and publications.

Par? Lab

[Cassander]

Baclofen and Anxiety

And one more thing...

I believe that the rehab community and the AA community has it all wrong about the relationship between anxiety and alcoholism. It would be one thing if this were an innocent mistake but its not that innocent. Millions of dollars are riding on the prevailing view that the resulting alcoholism of the chronically anxious is best treated by repeated rehab and relapse and not by addressing the underlying chemical imbalance in the brain which causes the anxiety in the first place.

When our son went into a nationally-recognized rehab facility, I asked the rehab center what their theory of treatment was and how they treat interconnected anxiety and alcohol abuse.

They answer I got was, frankly, gobbeldy gook. I won't try to describe it here because it made no sense. (I only later understood that there was no treatment for our son's main complaint of anxiety. The treatment program is 12 Steps, pure and simple.)

I guess if you give out enough gobbeldy gook and don't back off, scared, unaware, uninformed patients and family members will just back off and not ask any more questions.

Not me.

I said, "I don't understand your answer. Is your theory of treatment written down anywhere? Can I read it so I can try to understand it?"

She said, "Well, not really. But there is a book which explains everything we know about the causes and treatment of alcoholism. Its called "The Selfish Brain" by Robert L. DuPont, M.D."

So I bought The Selfish Brain. Cost me about $20. Its published by Hazelden, the rehab center, which is of course enormously invested in the proposition that traditional rehab (at about a thousand dollars a day) followed up by a life time of AA and 12 Steps punctuated by regular relapses is the only answer.

This was about a year ago. Frankly, none of it made any sense to me, but this was before I had heard about baclofen or read Dr A's book or started thinking about the relationship between alcohol and anxiety and discussing it with my wife and son.

Last night I pulled The Selfish Brain down off the shelf again and read the words of the renowned alcoholism expert Dr DuPont on the relationship between anxiety and alcoholism.

Here is what he professes:

"Because of my own professional involvement with both addiction and the anxiety disorders, I am drawn to the more complex aspects of the self-medication controversy in addiction, using anxiety as an example. Most clinically anxious people fear loss of control, so they do not drink alcohol or, if they do drink, they use alcohol exceedingly moderately. On the other hand, some people who suffer from anxiety disorders do use alcohol and find that it reduces their painful panic and anxiety, at least for an hour or so following alcohol use. A small percentage of all anxious patients get trapped in their use of alcohol, escalating their alcohol use over time in an alcoholic pattern.

Some anxious people become dependent on alcohol...Most anxious patients who continue to [demonstrate dependency] have a family history of alcoholism. This makes it apparent that these people found not just brief sympomatic relief from their anxiety in alcohol, but reward, or a high, with which they literally fell in love. It was the reward that produced the addiction, not the antianxiety affects of the alcohol.

Addicted anxious patients show the typical alcoholic pattern, which is easily distinguished from the common drinking behavior of the typical nonaddicted sufferer from an anxiety disorder. For these alcoholic people, their anxiety disorder does not explain their addiction to alcohol or other drugs, but occasionally it does explain how they became involved with alcohol in the first place.

The relationship of addiction to anxiety disorders is more complex than the initial picture suggests. Alcohol reduces anxiety only in the short run. Over hours, and even more over days and weeks, alcohol makes panic and anxiety worse. In fact, many alcoholics...as part of their addiction...become clinically anxious, even sometimes suffering from panic attacks and other specific anxiety disorders..."

Now it gets good:

"For most such addicted and anxious people, simply stopping drinking (which usually requires a program of life-long recovery in Alcoholics Anonymous) will terminate the symptoms of their anxiety disorder. In other words, for these alcoholic people, their anxiety disorder is secondary to their addiction in that their anxiety problem followed their addiction. Once the primary addiction to alcohol is under control, the secondary anxiety diminishes or even disappears.

Anxiety disorders can also be used by addicts as an excuse for their addictions. Even worse, this connection of alcoholism and anxiety can be an excuse for physicians who prescribe addicting drugs to people who are addicted to alcohol and other drugs in the mistaken belief that such treatment will improve both their anxiety and their addiction. When anxiety coexists with addiction, I suggest considering the addiction to be the primary disease when it comes to treatment."

I could quote more and if I had more energy to transpose I would, but the point is, I hope, pretty clear. Its bull shit. it really is. There is certainly no science behind it.

Traditional rehab- and AA-think has it that most addicts are anxious because they are addicts and if they would just use self-control and/or work the program they wouldn't drink and their anxiety would disappear. When the anxiety reappears and the relapse occurs, AA has a simple answer: you weren't working the program.

The evidence on this board seems to be 180 degrees opposite. Most posters who report suffering from chronic anxiety report that their anxiety has been a life long or at least long standing condition and that it usually pre-existed alcohol use and abuse. Most report that they drink to self-medicate the ever-present anxiety and that merely abstaining does not diminish their anxiety and that is why they eventually return to drinking.

Those who have found indifference through baclofen report that it is the effect of baclofen that not only eliminates craving but diminishes their anxiety to the point where they feel "normal". So alcoholism is not the primary disease. The primary disease is the chemical imbalance in the brain which causes the anxiety. It is the intolerable pain of the anxiety which causes the alcoholic to drink and it is the side effects and addictive properties of alcohol which cause the life-threatening consequences.

AA is a crude way to stop drinking (I would call it "assisted white-knuckling" and "witchcraft") which was undoubtedly the best answer available in 1935 but it does nothing to address the brain's chemistry (except to the extent that prolonged abstinence may naturally assist in rebalancing brain chemistry, just as diet, nutrition, and exercise may help). If the chemistry issue is not addressed the foundational anxiety issue will not be addressed and relapse is an all too likely outcome.

So, you can believe the gobbeldy gook and you can believe that willpower is the right way to overcome an imbalanced brain chemistry.

Or you can see if baclofen helps...

I still think Dr A deserves a Nobel Prize. Hell, if Obama got one for promoting world peace...

[Cassander]

Baclofen and Anxiety

And lastly (at least for the time-being):

I'm 61.

During the balance of my lifetime,

I expect to see baclofen accepted as the foundational treatment for alcoholism and many kinds of addiction.

I expect the pharamaceutical industry to develop improved compounds that address the chemical causes of addiction with greater specificity and fewer side effects. I am certain work is under way as I write.

I expect the rehab community to accept drug therapy as the best treatment for alcoholism and to modify their programs accordingly.

I expect AA to morph into a support system not terribly dissimilar from the support system found on MWO.

I expect alcoholism to be viewed universally as a treatable illness with a high likelihood of successful outcome.

And, as Dr L says, I expect Dr A to win the Nobel Prize

[Otter]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Hi Cass

You should have been here last October.

There is a witchcraft thread https://www.mywayout.org/community/f...aft-connection and an Ameisen for Nobel prize award. Apparently he wouldn't qualify for one. Here is that thread: https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...sen-47383.html

I share your agony, believe me. I feel the need to make this public but I am not sure posting here is the answer.

I spoke to a doctor in a hospital the other day and he knew about Baclofen and what it was for which is a massive change from a year ago. Everyone in my "circle" knows about it here. It has helped to a degree but it is still a miserable struggle to get help. Particularly in a state run system like the UK where no one really wants to stick their neck out and they are all paid a good salary by the government for dispensing antibiotics for sore throats.

I went in to my doctor the other day and was told that they could not even freeze a wart now because of "health and safety" concerns. Imagine getting doctors en masse to start prescribing a medication that has so many side effects. The medical insurers would faint.

This requires a huge raising of public awareness and government action. But how does it get going? People here are here to get well, not get involved in a public health movement and there is the issue of anonymity.

The press needs to get hold of this but most of the information here is getting lost in a proverbial hay stack.

I have spent a year now trying to forward this thing. I have come to the conclusion that there is not a whole lot you can do and the best thing is to concentrate on your own problem and talk to people who are involved with it.

I mention this forum to people and they just seem to smile benignly at me as though I am slightly crazy. Baclofen and the research on the amygdala are of huge importance but to most people it just isn't of any concern and it is not as though you can buy the stuff in a corner store and try it to cure all these ailments.

My approach now is that I have come to the realization that this is a physical illness which requires compassion and understanding, and treatment. This article about Rutgers really helped me because it now seems absolutely clear that all these illnesses are just variations on a theme. It also explains a lot about people drinking to drown their sorrows. Some people have no ability to extinguish memories so they drink them out of their heads.

So, maybe Baclofen should be promoted to help war veterans. If you want change, pick a highly emotive issue and start banging away at that and maybe we might get somewhere. Trying to promote the cause of alcoholics and drug addicts is a thankless and frustrating task, believe me. The mindset that it is a self induced moral condition is so deep it is nearly impossible to break. I try where I can to make others understand but I try also not to get too involved in the politics and publicizing of it because it can consume you.

People are getting the message though. Thankfully there are some very high powered members of the medical profession involved in this now so it is easier to get support for prescribing and to stop others simply writing someone off as an unrepentant alcoholic and not worth the effort.

[Cassander]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Hi Otter

This is a bit off "my" track of baclofen and anxiety, but you have made a lot of good comments and raised a lot of good questions in your last post.

If you don't mind I'll address them serially


1 There is a witchcraft thread https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ion-47964.html...

Interesting...I took a look at it.

I see your "victim" point, but actually that wasn't the point I had in mind. I think my point is more accurately described and should be rephrased as being that AA is like "witch doctoring". Its like a pseudo science.

2 ...and an Ameisen for Nobel prize award. Apparently he wouldn't qualify for one. Here is that thread: https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...sen-47383.html...

Well, ok. Maybe not. He still deserves to be highly honored and hopefully he will be.

3 I feel the need to make this public but I am not sure posting here is the answer...

Yes, we've discussed this in the past. I accept that this forum is primarily a place for individuals looking for help to find information and support. In that particular, I am hopeful that my focus on collecting self reports on baclofen and anxiety proves helpful to people experiencing anxiety and drinking too much. I am happy that if you google "baclofen anxiety" this thread comes up.

As far as making the potential of baclofen better known... I wish it were...and I am realistic about the limited exposure this forum has in the larger world. So be it. Some of the reason I am posting here is to develop and refine my understanding of the disease and the treatment and to save these thoughts in a "public" place. Thereby contributing in a small way to the global knowledge base.

As you know I have made one (so far unsuccessful) attempt to get the ear of the mainstream media here in the US and I will probably make more.


4 This requires a huge raising of public awareness and government action. But how does it get going? People here are here to get well, not get involved in a public health movement and there is the issue of anonymity...

Not sure. But if baclofen has a success rate anywhere between what Dr L claims and pick a number 50% and if the alternative is AA...I think the word will inevitably get out.

Anonymity is a tricky one. it will take some courage. But, no pain, no gain.

5 The press needs to get hold of this but most of the information here is getting lost in a proverbial hay stack.

Yes...but its all here and people are finding it.

6 I have spent a year now trying to forward this thing. I have come to the conclusion that there is not a whole lot you can do and the best thing is to concentrate on your own problem and talk to people who are involved with it...

Yep. You may be right. Or, you can do both. Work on personal issues and be an advocate to the limited extent possible. I bought seven copies of Dr A's book and have been judiciously handing them out.

7 My approach now is that I have come to the realization that this is a physical illness which requires compassion and understanding, and treatment.

I agree. Is there any question today in the year 2011 that this is a physical illness? I think it follows that it requires compassion and understanding and competent science-based treatment.

8 So, maybe Baclofen should be promoted to help war veterans...

I absolutely agree. Post traumatic stress is a huge and enormously expensive issue.

9 If you want change, pick a highly emotive issue and start banging away at that and maybe we might get somewhere...

Yes, hopefully someone will have the time, motivation and money to do that.

10 Trying to promote the cause of alcoholics and drug addicts is a thankless and frustrating task, believe me.

I hear you. But not impossible. Hundreds of millions of dollars are spent on alcoholism and addiction research and treatment every year. And here in the US we are broke and if there is a cheaper and more reliable way to treat alcoholism it will have to be looked at. If baclofen is demonstrated to work it will be accepted, sooner or later. In this respect the Amsterdam results will be key.

11 The mindset that it is a self induced moral condition is so deep it is nearly impossible to break. ...

Yes and no. I think the medical profession absolutely recognizes that alcoholism is a disease. its just that until recently there hasn't been much in the way of medicine-based treatment possibilities for the profession to work with.

13 I try where I can to make others understand but I try also not to get too involved in the politics and publicizing of it because it can consume you...

Yep, thankfully I've got a full-time job in the office.

14 People are getting the message though. Thankfully there are some very high powered members of the medical profession involved in this now so it is easier to get support for prescribing and to stop others simply writing someone off as an unrepentant alcoholic and not worth the effort...

So, at the end of the day, yours (and mine) is a pretty hopeful message. And you, Otter, have done a lot to make information and support available. If your efforts save just one life you will have made a greater contribution than most of us make during our few moments on this dusty planet.

[Cassander]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Ne/Neva Eva;1162889 wrote: Fellas, I can't wait to play! See you tomorrow morning! (btw, can I be the devil's advocate?)

Hi Ne

I'd love to hear your thoughtful reactions, devilish or otherwise!

Cassander

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen and Anxiety

I am really, really struggling with something we're labeling anxiety. It's a carousel of negative thoughts. My innate confidence, induced by new sobriety as well as baclofen, I think, is fleeting. More often I think things like, "If I pass this line of cars on the right and they don't see me, one of them may run me off the road." Or "If I'm late for this meeting they will know that I am completely inept and don't value their input. I can't believe that light won't turn green. FUCK. I suck. If I'd just left ten minutes earlier, I wouldn't be late. I really shouldn't schedule things like this. I should just do it by email or phone. Then no-one will know that I can't keep it all together." That particular train of thought continues ad infinitum until I have convinced myself that there really isn't a reason to do anything, since I'm completely incapable of all of it. (I was 4 minutes late.)
A couple of weeks ago my thoughts would have been, "I'm just going to be a couple of minutes late, but I had to do x, y and z in order to square away these other important things. I can't wait for the meeting. They're going to be impressed, I hope. hmmm. Maybe I should tell them I could've done it this other way. They might like that better. Fuck. That light is driving me crazy. I think I'll make an illegal U-turn and get this show on the road!"

There is so much more, but I'd have to share it in the moment. I think it's impossible to describe, too! So many people have similar thoughts. Mine lead me to a place of complete inertia and ennui and misery...And the bottle. I'm scared, it turns out, of everything. I had no idea until baclofen helped remove the irrational fear a bit. It's back now, and I can see it for what it is, but I don't know what to do about it. I'm still working on a solution, chemical or otherwise.

Back to the research and papers in a bit.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Cassander;1162988 wrote:


1 hmmm. I strongly suggest that discussions concerning other ways out be broached with an understanding that many people (most!) around here are using tools other than medication to get well. This includes, of course, the 12 steps. We can only hope that each and every person looking for a way out finds it. Anywhere.
I have two points to make from personal experience:
I am becoming very clear about the fact that that kind of approach to recovery was traumatic for me. I do not use that word lightly. It hurt more than it helped. ME.
The key, I think, is a support group. An anonymous forum does not take the place of this, though it's better than nothing and has served me very well.

2 I'm not touching this one.

3 I can't think of a better tool that will reach more people than the World Wide Web and social media. Not one. Newspapers pale in comparison. TV broadcasts regularly promote things they found on the internet.
We are reaching people in the english speaking WORLD through here.
There are also forums in France, Germany and the Netherlands. The French one is very active, Cass, and at one time they were open to dialogue. Then there was kerfuffle and something happened and I'm not sure where it stands now. bleep can help you with this.

4 This requires a huge raising of public awareness and government action. But how does it get going? People here are here to get well, not get involved in a public health movement and there is the issue of anonymity...

Not sure. But if baclofen has a success rate anywhere between what Dr L claims and pick a number 50% and if the alternative is AA...I think the word will inevitably get out.

Anonymity is a tricky one. it will take some courage. But, no pain, no gain.

Big hmmmm. Very often, in terms of this disease, there is little gain from a whole host of pain. Lots and lots and lots of it. The general public has a very incorrect picture of the facts about this disease. The people invested in traditional 'treatment' approaches; the participants in the traditional models; the people who think treating addiction with medication is substitution or worse, a different high: All of these people have a vested interest in discrediting the use of baclofen or any other medication.
Dr. L does not, by his own admission, keep tabs on this kind of thing. His specialty is not addiction treatment. He is not studying or planning on publishing.
The entire world is invested in the traditional models of "treatment." We dismiss that at the expense of bringing an understanding to just about everyone.

5 The press needs to get hold of this but most of the information here is getting lost in a proverbial hay stack.

Nope. It's all here. It's being consolidated on the Consolidated Bac Thread. And on the Success thread. And a couple of others.
The science and papers on the Consolidated Bac Thread are woefully outdated. Otter posted some really good links to more recent information, and when I followed them I came up with several more related to what we're doing here.
I suggest it's time we started listening to the medicos, rather than dismissing them. They know more about medicine than we do. They just don't know very much about us.
The press has gotten wind of it. There's little science (but it's building) and not a good spearhead. Even the people who did the original research are very wary of prescribing/studying bac at the doses we take. There's got to be a reason that isn't just ignorance. They know[/i] what we're doing, make no mistake.

6 I have spent a year now trying to forward this thing. I have come to the conclusion that there is not a whole lot you can do and the best thing is to concentrate on your own problem and talk to people who are involved with it...

Yep. You may be right. Or, you can do both. Work on personal issues and be an advocate to the limited extent possible. I bought seven copies of Dr A's book and have been judiciously handing them out.[/I]

Not touching this either. Sorry. I think the part I put in bold says enough...

7 My approach now is that I have come to the realization that this is a physical illness which requires compassion and understanding, and treatment.

I agree. Is there any question today in the year 2011 that this is a physical illness? I think it follows that it requires compassion and understanding and competent science-based treatment.

Yes Cass. There is a question about whether or not this is a physical illness. It all boils down to picking up the first drink, remember? And then picking it up again. Most people have NO IDEA, none, cannot fathom, why we do it time and time again. Even the scientists with a lifetime of dedication to the field are trying to figure this out. Hell, even we are amazed when we end up drunk time and time again.
Support groups.

8 So, maybe Baclofen should be promoted to help war veterans...

I absolutely agree. Post traumatic stress is a huge and enormously expensive issue.

Irrelevant to my perspective and position on this, which is addiction. However, trauma is an interesting avenue to follow and a whole branch of study is dedicated to just this and addiction.
If there was identifiable trauma in my life or my family, you can bet I'd be suggesting baclofen.

9 If you want change, pick a highly emotive issue and start banging away at that and maybe we might get somewhere...

Yes, hopefully someone will have the time, motivation and money to do that. [/I]

hmmm. Not sure that's how change works. Revolutionizing the status quo takes a lot of time and hard work behind the scenes before it actually gets anywhere. However, this is happening and I guarantee that some of the names we've tossed around have heard of and/or tried bac. How could they not?
You gotta believe in it, you have to take it, and you have to keep taking it. I don't know that I would've done any of that if I hadn't seen the research with my own eyes. And the SEs are terrible. Make no mistake.

10 Trying to promote the cause of alcoholics and drug addicts is a thankless and frustrating task, believe me.
[/i]
Imagine trying to treat us! Especially the smart ones! I have questioned every thing almost every doctor has told me. Hell, I even researched my statin drug, and find very compelling reasons not to take it. My doctor insists the benefit outweighs the risks (minimal.) She's wrong, though, and I'll bring it up at our next physical. New research is pretty conclusive that statins don't really stave off heart attacks or heart disease... lol. See? I'm a nightmare of a patient. I just need to take the damn statin and get on with it like every other person on the planet that has access to them...

11 The mindset that it is a self induced moral condition is so deep it is nearly impossible to break. ...
[/i]
Yes and no. I think the medical profession absolutely recognizes that alcoholism is a disease. its just that until recently there hasn't been much in the way of medicine-based treatment possibilities for the profession to work with.[/I]
Yep.


That's all that I've got time for this morning, and even that was curtailed! :H Sorry I'm so wordy.

I wanted to touch on MADD, for a moment. Without getting into my emotional feelings about that organization, and hopefully without opening up a barrage of bullshit, I encourage everyone to look into the politics and positions of that non-profit.
Who funds the bills? What are they doing on Capital Hill? Why did the original founder leave? In my strongly held opinion, that organization deserves absolutely no place in any discussion related to helping our people. Quite the opposite.

Cass, will you find a place/thread to tell us how your son is doing?

Looking forward to your thoughts!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen and Anxiety

For those with email notifications, I responded in detail to the other questions, but deleted it because I'm out of time and cannot do it thoroughly and correctly. I'll return later.

[Otter]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Hi Ne. You might want to try a beta blocker like propranolol. It stops those thoughts whirring around.

[SlipperyPete]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Ne I'm right there with you with the confidence and anxiety thing. It feels like I'm doing everything for the first time, which I guess is kind of true.

On Friday night I went to a local bar with a friend planning on having 1 or 2 drinks and playing some pool. I'd been there a few times before, but when I got there I suddenly felt petrified for some reason. I felt I couldn't do anything good enough, like shoot pool or talk to people. I remember wondering why my friend was drinking his beer so slow, he was making me look like an alkie! The weird part was that a few drinks didn't help cure the scared feeling like they would have in the past. Maybe if I'd have drank like 8 shots it would've helped, but who wants to drink that much anymore? 3 is more than I'd want to drink on any given night anyways. Fortunately the night ended up amazing, but shoot, it was not a good feeling.