HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

[Ne/Neva Eva]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Just go slowly! Maybe, just maybe, you'll avoid what we do because you aren't drinking? I don't know enough (anything) about meds so there is no telling, but if you don't get hungover...

Anyway. Slow and steady. Definitely wins this race.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

I have a question for you...(EDIT: questions! )

One hypothesis suggests that anxiety is the underlying root of this disease, and that baclofen gets to the heart of that.
If the medication you take treats anxiety, and you take an exorbitant amount on a regular basis just to feel okay (I am making that assumption) and bac only deals with that sort of, how is it going to be when you titrate off of the medication?

Alcohol increases anxiety, but the medication you take alleviates it. Right? Or is it similar in that when you use it too much, for too long, it also increases anxiety?

Also, HDB can cause/create/exacerbate (maybe, not sure) anxiety. Many of us experience an increase in drinking at some point. Or find a way to manage the anxiety through another medication (benzos, for instance.) What're you going to do as a solution if that comes up?

Now mind you, as I've mentioned, I have NO idea about the mechanisms or even anecdotal stuff about butalbital. I don't know how it feels, why one takes it, or what it's like to "maintain" vs. "abuse" it.

I refer to myself as a 'maintenance drinker.' I drank the same amount day in and day out, though more on days I didn't have to work because I started earlier. This is as opposed to the binge drinker, or the person who parties way too much on a regular basis. I just plowed through the same amount, in front of the tv/pc until I passed out. Is there a correlation? I only ask because it might be relevant in terms of using less in a controlled way.

But that would still leave you without an effective anxiolytic once you reach the goal. And life happens! Right?!?!? :H

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

First- Anxiety (or one of many other mental disorders) may be a mitigating factor in first initiating the use of drugs and alcohol; but its certainly not the foundation of maintaining addiction, or even getting to the point of addiction/dependency after using multiple times. And the tendency to repeat use of drugs/alcohol right before dependency occurs is a sketchy area; this is what the new revelations of genetic-predispositions towards addiction addresses. It specifically addresses this issue: why two people, who both have an identical mental disorder (be it anxiety or another dysfunction they're trying to self-medicate) will differ in how they deal with substance use. Both experiment with drugs/alcohol and find it useful for treating acute symptoms of their specific mental disorder. But individual "A" will choose to deal with anxiety rather than risk addiction; while individual "B" will continue use until dependency occurs and the addiction disorder (which is similar to ANY other psychological disorder) manifests itself.

Even if you exclude *any* underlying mental disorder or minor anxiety, the difference between individual "A" and "B" (as to why one becomes becomes dependent, despite being aware of the risks; while the other doesn't) is a genetic issue based on our current medical knowledge. And, from my experience, I know many individuals/friends (usually women.. for some reason?) who do not utilize alcohol or illicit drugs anymore to treat their symptoms (although HAVE in the past) and choose to deal with debilitating panic attacks & anxiety rather than be subjected to dependency- again, this is where genetics come into play. So I think this is more relevant, at least by my view & by what the majority of the medical community thinks (including the DSM, the holy-grail of psychological disorders & dysfunctions--which most certainly lists alcoholism & addiction as disorders, just like schizophrenia, personality disorders, & depression).


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Second- Yes, I am aware of the HDB causing anxiety (albeit quite paradoxical). To address some of your other issues you raised on anxiety (if i'm understanding what you're trying to say, that is)- since alcohol & butalbital (& all other barbiturates) act on GABA-a receptors as an agonist (albeit through different mechanisms--wont get into the gritty details now), while baclofen acts on GABA-B receptors as a direct agonist; of course there is some anxiety there w/ reduction of the GABA-a agonist agent. Although, I am not entirely convinced baclofen does not induce anxiety in some instances--b/c i've felt it too, and i'm still stuck at the low dose of 40mg/day. Although, this would HAVE to result from some unknown pharmacodynamic interaction at receptor complexes other than GABA-B, as GABA-B agonists do not cause anxiety, they're potent anxiolytics (look at GHB or Phenibut?). I personally suspect something with glutamate or adenosine receptor-systems.


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Alcohol increases anxiety, but the medication you take alleviates it. Right? Or is it similar in that when you use it too much, for too long, it also increases anxiety?

Not so much; there is more complexity there. First, for simplicity, lets look at alcohol & other GABA-a agonists (such as the barbiturate butalbital in my quagmire, heh) as synonymous, since all GABA-a agonists produce very similar effects, at least as an end result neurophysiologically spreaking. SO- GABA-a agonists will be anxiolytic (i.e., relieving anxiety) during acute intoxication. However, as tolerance develops, this anxiolytic effect is less pronounced unless intake or dose is increased. Anxiogenesis (that is, INCREASING anxiety) occurs after the initial and acute effects of the GABA-a agonist has subsided. And anxiety especially increases after cessation of long term use due to neuroplasticity (i.e., changes in the brain)--which results from the brain always trying to create an equilibrium of neurotransmitter levels (queue tolerance!), thus, in presence of constant exogenous substances; there is down regulation of activated receptors (LESS of them) for natural neurotransmitters to bind to once intake is stopped. This process, although simplified = withdrawal.

In the GABA complex, which includes alcohol; barbiturates; benzodiazepines.. its somewhat more complicated. Up-regulation occurs on secondary receptors which GABA-a agonists INHIBIT (causing sedation, anxiolytic effects, etc). So, upon abrupt cessation, the decreased endogenous GABA efficacy causes MANY MANY secondary neurotransmitters to fire on overdrive (which can cause excitotoxicity and neuron death, i.e., brain damage!); this causes major anxiety.. and because of GABA's widespread function the central nervous system; this resulting dysfunction of GABA can result in anxiety and other post-acute-withdrawal symptoms lasting for years! Dependency on GABAergic drugs like alcohol, barbiturates, or benzodiazepines are the most common substances to cause post-acute withdrawal-syndrome; much more so than heroin (as i previously mentioned- i'm a recovering heroin addict. I would choose cold turkey withdrawal from heroin ANY DAY OF THE WEEK over withdrawal of even 3x-4x the typical daily dose of a GABAergic, like barbiturates--including the drug i'm on, butalbital--or benzodiazepines. And that is absolutely no joke).


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Finally- in short; to answer your question about what I will do about anxiety: Well, to quote you, thats life! Hopefully i'll learn to deal with it, in conjunction with my therapy. Although, my first goal is not necessarily to completely STOP butalbital (which is a potent anxiolytic by the way; and just like any other barbiturate, much more potent as an anxiolytic than any other benzodiazepine)... but rather decrease to an AFFORDABLE and SAFER dose. I am shooting for (eventually) 700-900mg/day. Which is only around 2x the daily max dose for non-tolerant individuals. But, this process is very slow due to butalbital's VERY long duration of action, & very long half-life. Although, baclofen has very uniquely allowed me to drop my dose by as much as 26% for a period of several days without much withdrawal. This would otherwise be completely UNBEARABLE for me (update on my current status coming soon!).

Anyway, if i left out anything you said, or misunderstood it, I will promptly get to it! AND- i still haven't forgotten about contacting you about some pharmacological talking! Camping was exhausting, just got home a few days ago & sleeping 12 hours a day (we don't camp in like, camp-ground camping... its middle of nowhere, no water; no food; no electricity; no wood; cut down your own trees; maintain a fire 24/7 for cooking... type of camping; soo i've been pretty wiped out!)

[RedThread12]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

I don't want to make too big a deal of this, but MM, among all of us, what you are doing - quite successfully, to date - is surely one of the first possible "case studies" of baclofen's efficacy in . . . well, all I can say is . . . a layered and complex application. I SO think this will work for you in ways that you, nor any of us, could have done more than imagine.

Was it to you that I posted about a phone conversation that I had with a man who successfully came completely off suboxone with High Dose Bac? I basically understand the Gaba-A/B thing, but I think you have a far more complete understanding of that neurochemistry than I. However, my "gut" (there actually IS a "gut" brain - the enteric nervous system,) says that with careful titration, and VERY carefully observing the effects of each change in ALL of the substances you are taking, at some point, baclofen must, eventually "win."

Clearly, it's "tight-rope-walking" - ish. As has been noted, it can take several days for the full effect of a single increase of baclofen to be fully experienced. Which confirms what Ne encourages . . . to take it slowly. But clearly you're attentive and receptive to your bodies' communications, which IS your guide, at this point. We're here to support, chat, inquire, investigate with you. We don't know so much about your medications, but we do know about bac. And we're ALL here to learn as much as we possibly can. Thanks again for posting with us. Steady as she goes. It really is One Day At A Time. IMO, it's only what you find out from what you do, that will tell you what to do next. Sounds like an adventure, to me!! All the best . . .

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

RedThread12;1346315 wrote: I don't want to make too big a deal of this, but MM, among all of us, what you are doing - quite successfully, to date - is surely one of the first possible "case studies" of baclofen's efficacy in . . . well, all I can say is . . . a layered and complex application. I SO think this will work for you in ways that you, nor any of us, could have done more than imagine.Oh, you can most certainly make a big deal out of it! My ego could always use some stroking ...anyway, yes, I mentioned this earlier in my thread: this most certainly is a case study. And so far, although I am somewhat stuck at my current dose, it is helping. I will do a follow-up post today as soon as I get my work done that i've been putting off...

Was it to you that I posted about a phone conversation that I had with a man who successfully came completely off suboxone with High Dose Bac?

Yes, that was me.. and yes there is most CERTAINLY a very effective mechanism baclofen has (even at my low doses) with opioids; well, at least with buprenorphine (suboxone). I have been helping out a "girlfriend" (err close "lady-friend" as i'd more accurately call it) with suboxone, as she just got out of rehab, has no money, medicaid doesn't cover anything, suboxone-licensed doctor's are wanting at least $250 just for the ASSESSMENT (no meds, just the ASSESSMENT) in cold hard cash *ONLY*... well anyway, this has caused me to drop from 4mg to 2-3mg within a period of three or four days and I felt absolutely no adverse effects. It is completely unbelievable. That is a 33%-50% reduction in dose!! And for some comparison, it took me about two years to get down from 7 mg to 4mg (And once you taper/titrate down below the 4mg point, it gets much harder than reducing your dose at higher levels, especially >8mg/day)! And I know it is definitely the baclofen b/c if i do not take a morning dose of it, I will "need" the suboxone more (i had been trying to reduce morning baclofen doses (but still taking the same overall daily dose of 40mg). Although I know a steady plasma level is preferable, due to my sleep issues the day time drowsiness is at times unbearable; but, I am gutting it out now nonetheless).

Clearly, it's "tight-rope-walking" - ish. As has been noted, it can take several days for the full effect of a single increase of baclofen to be fully experienced. Which confirms what Ne encourages . . . to take it slowly. But clearly you're attentive and receptive to your bodies' communications, which IS your guide, at this point. We're here to support, chat, inquire, investigate with you. We don't know so much about your medications, but we do know about bac. And we're ALL here to learn as much as we possibly can. Thanks again for posting with us. Steady as she goes. It really is One Day At A Time. IMO, it's only what you find out from what you do, that will tell you what to do next. Sounds like an adventure, to me!! All the best . . .

Yes, i'm going very slowly! It definitely is working. As some have noted, i'm noticing the following issue: i don't necessarily feel like I "need" the butalbital as I used to; but, b/c it is a matter of habit on some level, its a process of learning how to just NOT TAKE IT if I don't feel like I need it! Anyway, I will say, in between Rx's if I am short on money (pretty much always)- there are times where I have to drop over 30% of my daily butalbital dose for 2-3 days & it is utterly amazing how absent the withdrawal is w/ the baclofen (of course, there's still some symptoms; but I am still functional)! This was NOT the case before. Whatsoever.. when this happened in between Rx's i would get tremors, severe (& uncomfortable) stimulation, severe insomnia (or no sleep at all), paralyzing anxiety, and quite-thorough anorexic effects (If anything, I welcome my increased appetite w/ baclofen, I could use a few more pounds).. and before, to just even get my prescription or communicate with someone- I could not formulate thoughts well; my thinking was jumbled & confused; severely decreased ability to maintain attention; & my short term memory was shot. These last few issues are severely lessened by the baclofen.


But.. I digress...
:thanks: I appreciate the compliments & everyone's help! i can say this forum is honestly the most response and receptive support forum i've ever been apart of.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Morning, MM!

I'm going to set aside much of what you wrote about the nature of anxiety, what treats what and where and what causes dependence/addiction. Not because I don't really appreciate your knowledge and input. It's interesting and at some point we'll have time to discuss all that.

Mostly because that's a bit beside the point (for my purposes :H) at the moment.

SO!

MusiciansMallet;1346242 wrote: in short; to answer your question about what I will do about anxiety: Well, to quote you, thats life! Hopefully i'll learn to deal with it, in conjunction with my therapy. Although, my first goal is not necessarily to completely STOP butalbital

I'm glad you're in therapy and taking steps to "learn to deal with it." Much as I abhor the reliance on psychological approaches to the biological disorder that many of us have, I think that in "learning to deal" with things we improve both our chances and our quality of life.

I'm pretty sure that if your goal isn't abstinence then you won't achieve abstinence. That said, I think it's a pretty cool thing that there is a place (here) where that isn't a deal-breaker. In fact, I think that when actual science catches up with anecdotal evidence there will be a lot more people who will be or are addicted to something and get help, relief and reward from a maintenance dose of what we used to consider addictive and terrible drugs. That said, I hope you can get to the point where what you are taking is legal and prescribed. (It will likely be a different world, but you really never know! Really! I neva eva predict the future anymore, 'cause it often blows me away with how different/good tomorrow turns out to be. Anyhoo... )

The camping trip sounds amazing. I love to camp. Or rather, I love the idea that I love to camp. But it scares the crap out of me. Ed and I camped for my fortieth birthday in a shelter on the Appalachian trail. (A safer place could not be found. I know this in my rational brain.) We shared the shelter with a woman doing the whole trail in one season. She ate peanut butter in the shelter! And then went to bed! With the jar in her rucksack!!! Ed and I were awake all night wondering when the (very tame) black bears were going to show up to filch her peanut butter and nibble on our toes. We hitchhiked back to our truck the next day. :H
(Add to this that I brought a down blanket with us in case we got cold. I am actually embarrassed to admit that. :H)

It astounds me that your friend can't get treatment without an outlay of cash. I'm not surprised of course, and don't know of a better way under our current system. I am very glad there is a safety network (of sorts) in our friends. Too many die. Too many suffer. It overwhelms me sometimes.
ack! I digress again, and now I have to go.

Here's what I'd like to know today:
Where are you with the bac, the SEs, the other meds you take. And how are you? Still optimistic I hope. Still fighting the good fight and all that other pep-talk stuff I like to dole out before the sun comes up! Hope it's a good day, MM.
xo

[spacebebe01]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Hi MM Just saying hello and how are you today?

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

spacebebe01 wrote: i MM Just saying hello and how are you today?Well hello to you too! Today is particularly a great day.. thanks for asking!


Anyway-
Hey thanks for both your interest, i'm doing well! Sort of "stuck" i suppose; but i guess you could call it taking it slow?

Baclofen, i'm still at around 35mg-40 mg; i am able to up my dose by around 10% ~45mg when i sleep well the night before; otherwise the drowsiness is intolerable. But even at 40mg, by evening, i get ataxia (discoordination); speech problems (as if i'm drunk); and literally falling asleep in front of my computer (almost like nodding from opiates, but not euphoric).. BUT, my intake of butalbital greatly diminishes during this time. Caffeine seems to be utterly useless in the face of this SE too. i am sort of still stuck at 1100-1400mg of butalbital. It would be a great leap if i could STAY at 1100-1200mg; but, i am just so used to having butalbital when i'm out of the house (which is when i'm at 1400mg/day, give or take).. but, i can definitively say i don't really *need* it as I used to (both physically and psychologically). This is no doubt a tangible effect, since I was skeptical in the first place (baclofen was basically a desperate reach...); So, I experiment each time with taking *less* than usual for the days before going out/having to be social/etc.

Oddly enough.. in the mornings i feel great, energetic, I can have my first morning cigarette before taking ANY of my medicine (uhhh that is HUGE; and a good thing... well, probably not a good thing for my lungs, but ya get the idea). baclofen seems to be transforming me into a morning person. This is an odd side effect to say the least. I suspect the vivid dreaming induces more REM sleep (which increases quality of sleep; i.e., ya get more out of less..)

Some of the exasperated effects from baclofen I originally started this thread over are still there (but in a good way): the butalbital is not as effective with the baclofen (as in, the subjective "feeling" I admittedly enjoyed from butalbital), but now, it doesn't cause me to increase my dose. It is the opposite.. its causing me to decrease my dosage.

Suboxone? That's another story, as i mentioned; i'm able to get by now on 2-3mg a day from 4mg in a matter of weeks. This is unheard of; i've been on the stuff for 5 years now and was never able to drop like that. I merely use the gauge of feeling abnormally cold & excessive yawning to dose, rather than how i "feel"--b/c, well, i feel fine without it.

Ne/Neva Eva wrote: I'm pretty sure that if your goal isn't abstinence then you won't achieve abstinence.

Well, I am legitimately prescribed the medication (although am taking MORE than what is prescribed via online vendors/pharmacies); I want to titrate down the butalbital to a rational dose. Although, I most certainly would prefer to not be on it if I can make it without it. I am just not putting any conditions on it.. at this point. Plus, at lower doses of barbiturates, you can painlessly transition to benzodiazepines (if my doctor were to agree...)

Ne/Neva Eva wrote: Or rather, I love the idea that I love to camp.

:H :H ...yea good luck w/ the peanut butter thing.. whew.. yes we have family down in West Virginia, quite used to the pesky black bears. Sometimes they come through here (we're directly north) all thought they're more sensitive to human interaction; and no shame in bringing a blanket! I brought one! Of course, we were in PA; considerably colder at night than the App-trail!

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Just an update, & i'll be unusually concise this time! ("concise" according to my standards that is :H)

First-I am "stuck" at ~30 mg of baclofen. Although if I sleep well the night prior (and melatonin seems to be really helping with this) I can tolerate 40 mg of baclofen. Otherwise, drowsiness will become literally intolerable. And mind you this is after roughly 14 days of the same dose! I think there is certainly a cross-synergetic effect w/ butalbital (a GABA-a agonist) & baclofen (a GABA-b agonist) which induces more drowsiness. & this SE literally happens while i'm in the middle of an activity (sort of like a heroin or opiate "nod"... but without the euphoria; & with achieving sleep MUCH more quickly). And yes, i'm using probably between 5mg-10mg during the day; with anywhere from 25mg-35mg in the evening to avoid this SE.

Second- I am able to tolerate 1500 mg daily of butalbital without any adverse effects (although at times I can hit as low as 1100 mg per day, for a few days)! Baclofen seems to make me "not want" butalbital, or any GABA-a agonist drug. I think this is partially due to the fact that butalbital has sort of lost its luster (or euphoric effects) so-to-speak. These dose reductions were absolutely impossible prior to my use of baclofen (i've tried. Didn't go over too well to say the least).

...For those of you just reading this, butalbital--which is a barbiturate--is MY problem; not alcohol. Although it agonizes, or "plugs into" GABA-a receptors, just like alcohol, and blocks glutamate neurotransmitters, again just like alcohol. These are the two receptors mainly responsible for alcohol's psychoactive effects... although barbiturates more effectively & efficiently "do the job" at these receptors, compared to alcohol. This is why dependency occurs much more quickly and delirium tremens is much more likely w/ barbiturates than it is w/ alcohol!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Morning, MM!

Your experiences with this are pretty fascinating. And amazing!

Yep, I can certainly relate to the intolerable drowsiness. Naps got me through, and being busy and on my feet when I couldn't nap. The computer? A sure way to nod off. Same with TV.

I am not sure that taking it in a large dose in the evening, or even later, helps. I'm pretty sure that baclofen disrupts sleep, so it seems counter-intuitive to take it late, though there is definitely a balance when you're new to it.

I'm not busy at the moment, and really struggling with somnolence (maybe? Is that what this is?) which I think is unrelated to baclofen. That said, I have started weighting it toward later in the day, myself, but definitely not close to bed time. While I can take half (or more) of my dose at a time these days, I have to wonder if I'm not sleeping well and therefore not being awake well.

I am very tempted to go completely off of bac just to find out what the "new normal" really is! I have either been a drunk, or on baclofen, so I really have no idea. But like you, it was a desperate reach for me and I am loathe to find out what it feels like if the new normal includes craving or massive discomfort/anxiety.

As to being "stuck" at 30mg...It really depends on what your mental time frame is, you know? What's the rush? The people who stay on bac for a significant length of time seem to get better and better, though not necessarily indifferent. That seems to be what is happening for you, right?
On the other hand, if the time is right, and you want to get on with it, you might push the envelope and deal with the lethargy/somnolence/discomfort. What do you have to lose? (I mean that question literally. I am unclear as to the ways in which weaning off your meds vs. weaning off alcohol are different in relationship to baclofen. I feel pretty certain they're not completely dissimilar. Which is both comforting and makes me a little wary for you. 'cause the people who just stop drinking suddenly, or take too much too quickly, can get all kinds of kerfuffled. But not in a life threatening way. And you are taking an awful lot of the stuff--wouldn't that be like a drinker drinking extremely heavily for years and years? Bac does a good job of helping with w/d but I wouldn't suggest to a guy who drinks a case of beer (vodka whatever) or more a night that he just up and stop, regardless of how good bac is making him feel.)

Finally, against all reason, it is conventional wisdom of a sort that the side effects from one dosage do not really equate with the SEs of a higher level. I certainly experienced increased energy at various times during my titration up. (I even felt, at times, that my body/brain was "wanting" more baclofen...And that by increasing a bit I was able to settle into a comfortable place for a little while. Much of that had to do directly with ability to sleep, of course.)
I am absolutely not a proponent of staying at one dose indefinitely if it is really uncomfortable or if the goal is indifference. That doesn't make sense to me.

Thanks for keeping us posted!

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Thank you kindly, good morning to you too Neva!

Ne/Neva Eva;1350247 wrote: Yep, I can certainly relate to the intolerable drowsiness. Naps got me through, and being busy and on my feet when I couldn't nap. The computer? A sure way to nod off. Same with TV.
..........
I'm not busy at the moment, and really struggling with somnolence (maybe? Is that what this is?) which I think is unrelated to baclofen.Yes "somnolence" basically means "drowsiness" -- it's just the medical definition of the symptom... b/c well, perhaps using a word like "drowsiness" would just make too much sense for doctors? :H ...but yea, to combat the baclofen effects I get that are nearly-narcoleptic, I basically have to do the same thing; either quick power naps, no longer than 1.5 hrs and/or PHYSICAL work. Even then though, during physical activity that is, the somnolence seems to manifest itself in a an odd-drunken type state (but without any the euphoria..)

I am not sure that taking it in a large dose in the evening, or even later, helps. I'm pretty sure that baclofen disrupts sleep, so it seems counter-intuitive to take it late, though there is definitely a balance when you're new to it.

Personally, I noticed severe disturbances w/ night time sleep. But now, it has actually quite adequately improved my sleep (I've had severe insomnia in & of itself, since the age of 7; so i'm 27...thats 20 years or so?). My REM sleep (i.e., the vivid dreams) most certainly improves the quality of my sleep; baclofen also helps me get to sleep very efficiently (although if I wake up, since it is during REM sleep, or "dream sleep", I find it hard to get back to sleep unless I force myself to stay in place, in bed... no cigarettes... no sex... no nothing, but sleep! heh) Although, this certainly may change after maintaining my use.

And.. GABA-b agonists are renown for being potent sedatives (regardless of how long it's used.. it still contains the same neurological action)! Perhaps the lack of sleep is due to the reduction of GABA-a agonists (i.e., alcohol) which of course usually coincides with baclofen use? OR even due to a partial blockade (err, inverse activity) at GABA-a sites (which i've certainly noticed), making alcohol or butalbital less effective as a sedative? its just a personal thought, though.

[MusiciansMallet]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

As to being "stuck" at 30mg...It really depends on what your mental time frame is, you know? What's the rush? The people who stay on bac for a significant length of time seem to get better and better, though not necessarily indifferent. That seems to be what is happening for you, right?To the latter statement- not so much. I should have worded it better; but, as a writer, I find if I continue to proof read I keep adding and adding and adding and adding... then end up w/ a novel! ..What I meant more so by "stuck" is my dosage. Baclofen has helped more than any other medication in my entire life in assisting with reducing self intake of not just the butalbital.. but also my buprenorphine (suboxone) & my obscene doses of diphenhydramine, 800 mg/day (recommended dose? 50 mg a day!)... for at least 3 weeks i've been at 50 mg of diphenhydramine (and some days I don't even take it!). And the buprenorphine (suboxone) I very *VERY* quickly weaned from 4 mg to 2-3mg in matter of 2-3 weeks, that is a 50% dose reduction of an opiate! In my five years of use, I have tried & tried & tried- and reducing my buprenorphine dose was utterly impossible (aside from a year-or-more long wean down from 7 mg to 4 mg, with absolute horrible adverse effects & withdrawal; even utilizing a very VERY slow wean!)

I am unclear as to the ways in which weaning off your meds vs. weaning off alcohol are different in relationship to baclofen. I feel pretty certain they're not completely dissimilar. Which is both comforting and makes me a little wary for you. 'cause the people who just stop drinking suddenly, or take too much too quickly, can get all kinds of kerfuffled. But not in a life threatening way. And you are taking an awful lot of the stuff--wouldn't that be like a drinker drinking extremely heavily for years and years? Bac does a good job of helping with w/d but I wouldn't suggest to a guy who drinks a case of beer (vodka whatever) or more a night that he just up and stop, regardless of how good bac is making him feel.)

First, alcohol differs (in short) from butalbital & barbiturates in a few ways. Relative to butalbital, alcohol is VERY VERY short acting (therefore weaning off must be done much slower in my case, w/ butalbital); second, alcohol has a much more sloppy or "generalized" effect in the brain, relative to barbiturates. Alcohol has secondary action at dopamine (secondary in that, it's not a literal dopamine releasing agent and/or reuptake inhibitor like cocaine or methamphetamine, but it does cause release of dopamine via a secondary mechanism, dependent upon action at a "currently unknown" receptor, most likely some unknown action at some GABA-a subunit receptor), along w/ acting at adenosine & AMPA receptors. & I certainly agree w/ the whole "just stopping" thing- on any drug that causes withdrawal or abstinence syndrome.. well to be blunt, it's a dumb idea to "just stop" without weaning- especially GABAergic drugs like alcohol, which, cause excitotoxicity (i.e., BRAIN DAMAGE) during withdrawal (this is why acamprosate is used, to help mediate and/or stop this excitotoxicity)! ANYWAY.. i'm starting to ramble again on pharmacology- SO, I digress

Finally, against all reason, it is conventional wisdom of a sort that the side effects from one dosage do not really equate with the SEs of a higher level. I certainly experienced increased energy at various times during my titration up. (I even felt, at times, that my body/brain was "wanting" more baclofen...And that by increasing a bit I was able to settle into a comfortable place for a little while. Much of that had to do directly with ability to sleep, of course.)

As mentioned, I've certainly noticed some erratic effects of baclofen, depending on dosage (i had energy when I first started taking my high doses of baclofen... prior to my whole ordeal of 48 hours of hell.. heh)- so yea, i will definitely keep that in mind! Maybe i'll try finally pushing upwards for a few days when I don't have anything to do or no plans for at least 2-3 days?

[RedThread12]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

Sounds like a very, very good plan, MM.

I have to admit, my time has been short and I've only skimmed these extensive posts. But I know you're in excellent hands w/Ne. And I read enough to see that you're getting some rather phenomenal results. What in the world would keep you from taking the "big picture" view and, as you suggest, coordinate, as much as you are able to, your titration and your schedule over a considerable period of time. This is not a race. But it may be your life, and is obviously quality of life.

It's worth it.

I also love you're extensive, informative posts, MM. And all of the great responses you get. But, aside from whatever information they contain, I can't help put look simply at the number of characters in your posts and in Ne's.

Yep. From that perspective, I think she's finally met her match, MM. :H:H

[Ne/Neva Eva]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

I know! omg, RedT, I finally feel your pain!
(ftr, RedT and others have commented that they often don't have time to read my tomes. I have tried really, really hard to keep 'em short and sweet and I have failed miserably.)
Between MM and StuckinLa I swear I spend more time here than I used to--but now it's reading. And then reflecting on the good stuff and then responding to just one little thing because that's all I have time for!
Which is what has happened and I gotta go!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

HELP- baclofen for butalbital (fioricet/butalbital), problems questions

No worries, though, MM. I read fast!