Moderating is so subjective!

[Heavenly]

Moderating is so subjective!

In the case of goals or limits for moderating, correct me if I am wrong, but no-one mentioned the actual safe 'physical' limits...we all know that doctors are forever changing their recommendations about safe limits of alcohol consumption ... wouldn't moderation goals be aimed at a healthy physical level of consumotion as well as concentrating on cravings or dependency levels....

In the UK:
1 unit = approx small glass of wine (don't ask me how many mls or oz),
1/2 pint beer or cider/lager etc = 1 unit

Men can have 14-21 units per WEEK
Women are supposed to have upto 14 units per week (not the 14 I was having a NIGHT !!!! but that's another story ...)

So moderating for me would actually be conforming to the social and medical 'norm' of these units ....

[A Work in Progress]

Moderating is so subjective!

Sunbeam;459953 wrote: WIP... I am very sorry I couldn't fine a crescent wrench in my basement. I really had been willing to send you one!

Back on topic, I think a big mistake is when people with past problem drinking look at moderation limits set for normal people, and then think they are going to be able to do that. We are not normal, our body chemistry may have been different at birth, and we have definitely changed it through excess drinking.

Haha! Still waiting and hoping for that crescent wrench, I am!! Oh, well...

I agree with what you are saying... I suspect that using the "medically safe" limits, such as Heavenly listed just above, is going to be a problem for most people with a long-term history of heavy drinking. Just like you are saying, the underlying vulnerability is still there, as well as the long-term effects, so that the capacity for control... which has always really been the big problem for most of us... is just plain impaired, and probably always will be, for most of us.

If one gets to the point where alcohol really does "seem like butter" (no big deal, take it or leave it) ... then maybe it's a different story. I haven't heard many people here at MWO talking about having gotten to that point.

wip

[nancy]

Moderating is so subjective!

I think from my own experience, it is possible to moderate for long periods of time and have lots of AF days and not be all wrapped up in alcohol, but to then have a binge from out of the blue. So you have to be on guard.

Observing government limits sounds like a wise idea to me.

[Sheepish]

Moderating is so subjective!

Hello Everyone
I hope you don't mind me dropping in here- I happened upon this thread and have been reading with interest. Very interesting points of view- all. I have been thinking a lot of what moderating means for me and have come to the current conclusion that it is this-FOR ME Moderating is a state of BEING vs DOING. Here are 2 scenarios to explain.

Scenario 1
Essentially, if I find myself in a state of contemplating, planning, wondering about, counting, withholding, debating over, self flagellating, self congratulating, abstaining- ANY behavior that involves actual consideration of Alcohol and my intake or non-intake - then I am NOT moderating. I am actively participating in the dance. Even if I am winning at the time and abstaining. For Me- this is not NOT moderating, even if I am 'drinking normally'.

Scenario 2
However, if I am NOT thinking about it at all- and am presented with an opportunity to drink and decide to either partake or not, THAT would be successful 'moderating'. It would be inherent in my mood at the time that Al is not part of what will 'make me happy':

A- I was not thinking about Al therefore I was psychologically, physically, spiritually- in a 'good place' and felt I could be happy and comfortable without it, hence the 'not thinking about it' part

B- Since I could take it or leave it, there would not be an urge to over drink. For Me- THIS is moderating.

I can say that Scenario #2 still happens to me. HOWEVER, Scenario #1 happens as well and I think- with more frequency.
Does this make sense?
My .02
Thanks for letting me share
-Sheep

[IAD]

Moderating is so subjective!

That's so right. I look at it like " The Fallicy of the beard" ( How many hairs make a beard.....100 hairs to little, maybe 500 hairs will make a beard ! It's so subjective !) IAD.

[nancy]

Moderating is so subjective!

The thing is though sheepish, people who choose abstinence have that dance, many of them have it all the time for years and years. I had a lot more of that while abstaining than when moderating, constantly worrying about alcohol for every event I attended.

I think really it's about learning to cope with life without booze and to make it a smaller and smaller part of life. Also, I think we might have something to learn from people who deal with food addiction. They still need to eat but they get better at avoiding triggers.

[Starlight Impress Forever]

Moderating is so subjective!

Broadly speaking, keeping within Gvt. guidelines is, I think, a fair enough definition of moderation. Then again, alcohol affects everyone differently, so that level of consumption may well prove to be excessive for some people.

Also, I think successful moderation may well cause drink to become less and less significant a part of one`s life, as nancy said.

Star x

[CS04]

Moderating is so subjective!

Daisy, Oprah had a show about your situation -- people who had gastric bypass surgery who later became problem drinkers -- traded one addiction for another. Carnie Wilson was on the show, and I think she wrote a book, too. You could go to Oprah's website to findthe info.

[Eve11]

Moderating is so subjective!

Sheepish;460135 wrote:
Essentially, if I find myself in a state of contemplating, planning, wondering about, counting, withholding, debating over, self flagellating, self congratulating, abstaining- ANY behavior that involves actual consideration of Alcohol and my intake or non-intake - then I am NOT moderating. I am actively participating in the dance. Even if I am winning at the time and abstaining. For Me- this is not NOT moderating, even if I am 'drinking normally'.Sheep

Sheep,
Thank you for your reply to the thread. I don't agree with your statement (and remember this is only my personal opinion) on the basis that we are all here with alcohol problems and many of us are here because we are trying to see if we can moderate and not have to go the total AF route as AA expounds. Because of that, none of us are normal drinkers who can just take it or leave it. Because we are trying to choose moderation that choice will always be working the program to some degree so we will be counting, withholding, journaling, self congratulating etc.

If we were normal drinkers we wouldn't be here. We're not...but we're ok. We have each other and together we will beat this whether it's modding or going AF.

United we stand,
Eve :-)

[A Work in Progress]

Moderating is so subjective!

Eve11;460321 wrote: Sheep,
Thank you for your reply to the thread. I don't agree with your statement (and remember this is only my personal opinion) on the basis that we are all here with alcohol problems and many of us are here because we are trying to see if we can moderate and not have to go the total AF route as AA expounds. Because of that, none of us are normal drinkers who can just take it or leave it. Because we are trying to choose moderation that choice will always be working the program to some degree so we will be counting, withholding, journaling, self congratulating etc.

If we were normal drinkers we wouldn't be here. We're not...but we're ok. We have each other and together we will beat this whether it's modding or going AF.

United we stand,
Eve :-)

Well, the thing is, Eve, that it is "normal" drinking (without a lot of counting, worrying about control, periodically drinking too much, etc.) that is what RJ talks about achieving in the MWO book! "Like butter"! And I think a lot of people come here, hoping for exactly that. Especially if they have read the MWO book.

wip

[Eve11]

Moderating is so subjective!

A Work in Progress;460324 wrote: Well, the thing is, Eve, that it is "normal" drinking (without a lot of counting, worrying about control, periodically drinking too much, etc.) that is what RJ talks about achieving in the MWO book! "Like butter"! And I think a lot of people come here, hoping for exactly that. Especially if they have read the MWO book. wip

WIP,
I've read the book but it's been a long time. So are you agreeing with Sheep's statement then? I didn't agree with it because it seems to me that a problem drinker whether they're moderating or going AF can EVER get away without thinking about what they're doing in the drinking world. An AFer is congratulating themselves every night they go to bed and have had an AF day and a modding is doing the same if they've moderated the way they desired.

Email is hard as we can't hear tone of voice, see facial expressions etc. so, please understand I have no negative feelings here, just trying to understand Sheep's thinking and yours as well.
I don't know if I can ever get to the point of modding like you and Sheep say because I feel I'll always be thinking about my drinking to a degree because I have a problem with it.
Good discussion gang. Hope to hear more thoughts.

[A Work in Progress]

Moderating is so subjective!

Eve, I have to say that I am pessimistic about what I guess we could call "like butter" moderation, for most of those who have a really serious alcohol problem (in their history). I obviously accept that it CAN happen, because of RJ's experience, and there are a few people currently online here at MWO who seem to have gotten to the point that they are just not interested in alcohol any more, they don't think about it, but occasionally they have a couple of drinks.

For most people who move from heavy alcohol abuse/dependence to "modding," I think it requires a whole lot of self-control, planning, struggling with "when can I drink?" and "how much have I had?" and "can I have more?" etc. And for many, even with a lot of effort, it doesn't seem to work out well.

As for being AF: from my perspective, after the first few months, it gets a LOT easier. Once I decided for sure that I was a non-drinker, it just did not require a lot of effort or thought. It does, I think, require some vigilance, however, concerning my thoughts and emotions; but not a lot of work. Seems like less work, to me, than struggling with all the decisions and counting! I think that might be what Sheep was talking about.

wip

[Eve11]

Moderating is so subjective!

WIP,
Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense. So, I guess even what we want to consider "successful" modding is pretty subjective too.

I don't know that I'll ever get to the "like butter" phase, but for me I'm pretty darned pleased to being able to enjoy a couple of glasses on a week-end and not having the negative consequences. For me, personally at this time in my life, the price that I have to pay to do it (planning, recording on drinktracker, talking to other modders to keep me in check etc.) is worth it. But everyone has their own journey to take and to figure out what works for them.
Eve :-)

[periwinkle]

Moderating is so subjective!

Very awesome thread.

I posted something on another thread a couple days ago that got me thinking? I later did some personal journaling on it and wanted to share some of my thoughts here. I have suffered from migraines most of my life. Some years ago I went on an elimination diet and learned many foods and beverages that are migraine triggers for me. In some ways I feel like I am back in that place. I am on day 17 of a 30 day commitment of alcohol elimination. During this time I am evaluating my life with and without alcohol. Why I drink, what my triggers are, why I shouldn't drink, and carefully considering if/when I should try to moderate.

My elimiation diet research found some food and beverage triggers for my migraines. Artificial sweeteners and msg (monosodium glutamate) are instant debilitating migraine triggers for me even in very small quantities and I avoid them like the plague. In retrospect, a very small quantity of Brandy leads me to an empty Brandy bottle, I just don't want to stop. Should I decide to moderate, I will avoid Brandy as though it were msg!

Some foods, like potatoes, will on occasion trigger a migraine but generally only under certain circumstances. I have found over time that there are other factors such as storm systems entering the area that can trigger a migraine. This is not a good time to have a potato! It will increase my likelihood of having a migraine from the occasional potato. Applying that same logic to moderating alcohol, I will need to avoid alcohol during times of the incoming storm (or bad day at work, etc) as that increases my chance of unsuccessful moderation. Hence, I will likely have better moderation success with an alcoholic beverage that I normally would not over indulge in, like wine or beer.

I'm also learning so much about me through this. I have a little kid inside my head. I also have a very strong and wise adult in there. The adult needs to say no when the little kid whines about wanting things she shouldn't have.

Just thought I?d share.

I have really gained a lot from this thread. Thank you all of you for your thoughts!

periwinkle

[nancy]

Moderating is so subjective!

Eve, I agree with you, I was trying to make a similar point.

I think if you try abstinence you battle with your thoughts a lot at first so there is no reason moderation should be any different and that perhaps down the line we will master it.

I think compulsive thinking results in addiction also. So for me the alcohol problem is the symptom. So there will be a lot of thinking going on.

Abstinence can be really difficult mentally because you have this dreaded thought that you can never in any situation drink again. Every time you go out you are aware of it. Allowing a drink in controlled situations can take the edge of this and make it easier to get the problem under control.

But I realize this is controversial to say to some members here. The truth is, it's clear that some people on this site can never have just one or two and others can. If I can do it most of the time, I am feeling pretty good.