Is it delusional to mod?

[A Work in Progress]

Is it delusional to mod?

And... with all due respect... "proper guidance" is what, exactly? Are you claiming that you are "proper guidance"? Or that the MWO "program" (which as we know is only a set of suggestions) is "proper guidance"? Where are your data to support your claim that with ANY identifiable program of "proper guidance," a significant percentage of people diagnosable with alcohol dependence can learn to consistently, reliably, permanently control their drinking?

[Sunbeam]

Is it delusional to mod?

Kid, I love ya but I agree with WIP on this. During my year here I have read countless posts by people who have tried and tried but can't learn to drink moderately. It is disrespectful to not accept their experience on this. I truly believe that many people really are better off not drinking at all. Drinking puts their life in danger, and it is not worth the risk. At some point it is stupid for them to keep trying, and the only smart thing for them to do is never drink again. That is my impression from reading their stories.

[Kid Shelleen]

Is it delusional to mod?

I agree 100%, Sunbeam...

There are many, MANY people who are better off not drinking at ALL.
I hope many of them never even start.
I also accept people at their word.
If they say they can't drink moderately; of course I believe them.
I'm not promoting drinking.

What's lost in the small print, that I have now highlighted; is that if a person has used certain tools or methods to abstain,
they can probably use those same tools or methods to be as successful at moderating
as they were at abstaining,
if they choose to moderate.
If they were not successful abstaining, they probably won't be successful moderating.
Moderating is best for someone who CAN abstain but doesn't WANT to.

This I believe...
~KS~

[A Work in Progress]

Is it delusional to mod?

OK, Kid, you keep editing your posts after I post a reply, so it is getting really hard to follow this discussion. Now you are shifting the discussion to the question of how many people can sustain an AF life, and for how long. Perhaps you are thinking that people who "try to mod" (even though not with consistent success) have better outcomes than those who "try to stay AF"? The answer to that question is, of course: nobody knows! It's foolish to even speculate, given the very poor state of research on outcomes in this area, and given the difficulties involved in designing and funding studies that might begin to yield answers to such questions.

Nevertheless, since you bring it up, and since all this is speculation, anyway: Here's my thought, on that issue. Alcohol is a substance that always impairs judgment and decision-making. My life (certainly the quality of my life, and I believe, my life in a more ultimate sense) depends on the decisions I make about alcohol consumption. I am betting my life on the proposition that I am much, much less likely to start getting drunk again if I do not embark on another effort to drink (or "mod") again.

[A Work in Progress]

Is it delusional to mod?

Cross posted, now.

Moderating is best for someone who CAN abstain but doesn't WANT to.

ONLY IF THEY CAN AND DO RELIABLY, CONSISTENTLY CONTROL THEIR CONSUMPTION! And, not everyone who WANTS to do that CAN do that!

[A Work in Progress]

Is it delusional to mod?

Zennie I am not disagreeing with anything you said, but with some statements of Kid's. The "anyone can mod" statement bugged the hell out of me because it seems hugely obvious to me that there are SO many people who will snatch at any shred of an excuse to start drinking (or "trying to mod") again, even though it is very dangerous for them. I think that Kid rightly enjoys a lot of respect from many around here (including me) because his approach to modding is quite serious, reasonable, and even methodical. So when he says stuff like "anyone can" or "almost anyone can" it sets up the usual expectation we see in so many people here... how many times have you seen people plaintively asking WHY can't I drink like a normal person; these are people who are desperate to find a way to keep on drinking, people to whom alcohol is extremely important, and they will zoom right in on a proclamation like "anyone can mod." That's why I said I thought it was irresponsible... hence the disagreement... BUT for the most part I agree with Kid's approach, and agree that many of the successful approaches to controlled consumption are similar to successful approaches to remaining AF. However, that does not mean the two goals are interchangeable or equally applicable to everyone.

As far as "gaining control," that's one way of looking at it... two different types of control, but yes, in either case the bottom line is getting ourselves (our behavior, our thinking, and our emotional lives) under control....

[A Work in Progress]

Is it delusional to mod?

It's OK Zennie! I'm off to bed... I think we've all fully aired our various and sundry opinions and speculations, right Kid? You know I hold you in high regard. Friends can disagree... even vigorously...

[Kid Shelleen]

Is it delusional to mod?

Goodnight all...

No hard feelings,WIP...
Nice meeting you, Zennie!
Sleep well.
~Kid~

[Sweaty Betty]

Is it delusional to mod?

Oh good lord. I was enjoying this thread!

[Pan]

Is it delusional to mod?

What Betty said.

[Sunbeam]

Is it delusional to mod?

Back to the main point:
I have posted about my own success, but not about another path along the moderation road. I believe it IS delusional for people to come here and think they will start drinking moderately just by posting here, maybe taking supplements and or meds to lessen their desire for alcohol. You really need to learn to control alcohol by putting in significant AF time, then learn how to drink less than daily. You need to get honest with yourself about what the benefits of drinking really are: a lot less than you think. You need to learn to socialize with or without alcohol. You need to learn to relax, and deal with life and its problems, without alcohol. If you can do that, you may be able to learn to drink moderately. Drinking moderately is a learned skill, you don't just wake up one morning and do it. It took me some trial and error. When slips occur, you need to change something, probably reduce the frequency of your drinking. If you keep just saying, "Oops, I slipped again" (and again and again), that is the delusion. None of this is described in the MWO book, so ironically the program does not actually seem to be directed at enabling moderation, from my point of view.

[nancy]

Is it delusional to mod?

Hi there

I guess sometimes it can be delusional, depends on the individual. I think for others it's a real option. People with food addiction or eating disorders don't stop eating food right?

But really moderation is hard to achieve. So is abstinence.

I think what a lot of people do when they say moderation is harm minimization. They reduce the damage, number of days they get drunk. That's a step in the right direction. Seems like it is possible to reduce a lot but the tough part is eliminating binges forever.

[trixietrack]

Is it delusional to mod?

we should find a different name for it (moderation). This isn't easy, it requires dicipline and who has an easy time being diciplined after 2 or 3 drinks, that is tough, and if you are amongst other drinkers,it is even harder.

I do think that in some ways moderation is delusional, but so is complete abstinence.
Alcohol is like food.

Have you ever tried to stop eating? (fasting) this requires enourmous amounts of self control.

I think once you develop a heavy drinking habit you pretty much have to

A. embrace it and deal with it

b. quit all together. which will put you on the off/on the wagon roaller coaster.

c. moderate. and moderate your way.

for me moderation is not just one drink. most people drink to catch a buzz. so if I say one drink only, then forget it give me water or seltzer.

I also found out: (been doing this for 2 years now)

you cannot be hard on yourself. Ok so you got drunk last night and now you have a hangover.

remember that, and try and focus on staying away from booze for a few days. That's it.

also the more you analize your drinking, the worst your drinking is. If other people analize your

drinking or ask you to slow down, then accept the fact that you might have a problem there. If you cannot accept or acknowledge any of the above. you have got a serious problem honey.

I am constantly making efforts to stay away from heavy drinkers or serious drinkers.

They are attracted to me and me to them. I really don't know why. maybe it's because I live in a

drinking town.

If I want to not drink, I can't go out. I have a choice of working extra, doing art or going to the gym.

I just try and do my best at balancing both worlds.

My doctor says I am in good health. That is all that matters to me.

Booze isn't evil, we are not evil for drinking or not drinking.

Yeah moderation is about taking it easy on yourself.

[Kid Shelleen]

Is it delusional to mod?

Good post Trixie...

Quite thoughtful...
~Kid~

[ducky]

Is it delusional to mod?

Trixie,

It sounds like you are doing well. Nice to hear from you. A lot of what you wrote makes sense to me.