Can you moderate?

[Byrdlady]

Can you moderate?

I appreciate the opinions of all. But my post was directed at Eve....and the question remains: 'Why would you post this question?' Even in the mods boards? You have all of your facts and figures? You have your studies... why would you post this unless it is self serving? I CAN do it, but nodody else can. Even on the mods boards it is a cruel taunt. You've been around a long time and I'm sure you have seen your share of dispair here...so shame on you. If you spent the amount of time that many of us do trying to help instead of promoting yourself...well, fill in the blank. WHATEVER....(eyes rolling). Carry on...drink ALL you want! Be well. B

[vlivengood]

Can you moderate?

This will be the first time I give my two cents on this topic. When I first read Eve's post I was interested in some of the information she had provided and I felt it was directed at people have chosen to moderate not an attempt to recruit new members, as she posted in the mod section and we are sorry we can not do anything about it showing up in the new posting.

I think if she was going into the newbies nest and trying to convince new comers that it is better to mod I would COMPLETELY understand how upset you all would be as I would as well.

Modding is not for everyone and I do think that for the majority it is NOT an option.

Yes, we all have struggles with our moderation and share them with each other. I cant speak for everyone but for me personally I have not experienced any hangovers since I gave up liquor and my alcohol consumption has only been decreasing and days without any at all has been increasing and the days I do imbibe I fully enjoy and have no ill affects from them and I am truly feeling like I am getting back to that place where my life is not consumed by it and I can enjoy it the same as I used to with no problems.

I see that people who have given up or abstain have struggles as well? daily struggles, just like us, everyone has struggles right?

For me personally, moderating is no different a struggle then my weight or healthy eating habits or making sure I exercise or smoking cigarettes. I am also on a weight and fitness community site where I post about my struggles with those habits and life choices.

It is a constant struggle to make the right choices and I do not always choose to have a salad over a burger and sometimes I choose that burger and then say F' it to the diet and exercise for a while..... then some time passes and I get back on track. So should I never be allowed a burger again? Maybe if I had a horrible disease in which one burger threw me into the abyss and ruined my life I would choose to never have one again but luckily I don't. So when I feel like a burger weather it is good for my health or not and even if it makes me feel like crap later I am gunna eat that burger and enjoy it while I do .

I do understand that this is not the case for many and therefore try not to throw my ability to have a few and enjoy with no negative repercussions in anyone's face on this site. The only reason I came to this site was because I saw moderation was accepted and there were chats and posts and threads about it.

I rarely go outside the mod threads and when I do I NEVER post about my moderation, I may have a few posts in the beginning before I got the jest of this site. I do still enjoy reading all the advice and support and even offering support or words of encouragement when I can on or off the Mod threads.

Maybe abstainers and moderators just shouldn't share a site and I am not saying that in a "well if we all cant get along then maybe we should leave" way but just an honest thought for both parties.

I hold absolutely no ill feeling towards anyone on this site, I have no jealousy of anyone on this site, I respect everyone on this site, I am grateful for this site, I truly hope nothing I post hurts anyone on this site.

We definitely have become divided and caused some emotions and tempers to flare and I really hope that it can all be taken down a few notches and we can all come here for the support, encouragement, advice, compassion and friendships we all came here for in the first place....

[DfromCT]

Can you moderate?

My question to Byrdlady: Why does Eve owe you (or anyone) an answer? Why is it that important to you? What's the difference? We're not in "your" part of the forums posting negative things about abstaining. We're having a discussion, and welcoming those that feel pressured by the AF group to the moderation group. I personally have four private messages THIS EVENING from folks that have not been posting because they were intimidated by the AFers, yet thanked me for speaking up and letting them know there is a safe haven for those of us that want to speak freely in our area about moderation.

Not everyone will succeed at moderation. At the same time, not everyone is an alcoholic. Not everyone wants your advice. And there are many here, like me, that are not jealous of setting themselves up to fail, repeatedly, then beating themselves up for doing so. That's a "success" that I know I can do without. I'm honest enough with myself to be willing to admit that I'm not abstaining forever. This way, if/when I decide to drink, be it half a beer (done that) or a 12 pack, I won't call myself a failure. (That, by the way, is what drove me here. I think traditional treatment, declaring to the world you're an alcoholic, giving away power over making a simple decision and saying I can never have a single drink again, to me, is a recipe to fail, and fail in a big way. I think there's a whole lot of people out there that have been run out of here for expressing similar feelings, and that is what gets me so pissed off!)I'll simply and powerfully decide if I want to go back to abstaining or continue drinking. And I'll talk about it with my friends in the moderation areas of the forum.

IN OTHER WORDS, WE ALL HAVE OUR OWN PATHS. If mine is not the same as yours, too bad. I suspect more people come here b/c they don't want a traditional solution. We're not "recruiting" people to be moderators, we're welcoming those that want to speak freely about moderation, and warning them not to do so in the areas the AFers dominate. I'll speak for myself, but I know many other "newbies" feel the same way: You need to remember that I didn't come here asking for you to be my sponsor, or seeking to tell the universe I am an alcoholic and have no power over alcohol. On the contrary, I came here b/c I think that path is a set up for failure.

The militant AFers demand that we respect their part of the forums, yet they come to the mod boards and trash us, rate our threads one star so newbies are less inclined to read them, and then question every post we have that might give guidance to those like us that don't believe the all or nothing approach is right for them. When we ask why they cannot show the same respect we show them, there is no answer.

Byrdie, why can't you live and let live??? Why come to a part of the forums that you know you disagree with, and stir up trouble? I've long ago given up posting in the NN, why can't you show the same respect? To me those questions are WAY more interesting than the ones you ask Eve.

[Eve11]

Can you moderate?

vlivengood;1389914 wrote:
I rarely go outside the mod threads and when I do I NEVER post about my moderation, I may have a few posts in the beginning before I got the jest of this site. I do still enjoy reading all the advice and support and even offering support or words of encouragement when I can on or off the Mod threads.

Maybe abstainers and moderators just shouldn't share a site and I am not saying that in a "well if we all cant get along then maybe we should leave" way but just an honest thought for both parties.

I hold absolutely no ill feeling towards anyone on this site, I have no jealousy of anyone on this site, I respect everyone on this site, I am grateful for this site, I truly hope nothing I post hurts anyone on this site.

VL,
That was so beautifully written and you took many words right out of my mouth. The question was posed as to why I created the post. The answer is because I had many newbies and lurkers private mail or ask on other mod threads about moderation. I also heard some folks complain how they felt threads that should be neutral territory like General Discussion and the thread for new members gave people a difficult time when they discussed the possibility of moderating their drinking.

I think I used tact and fair judgment by posting this on our moderation site which is supposed to be our safe haven to discuss our moderating lifestyle and ups and downs. It is not an attempt to "recruit" members but to discuss research based topics that show that more people get help for themselves when they are given choices other than having no choice but to accept the all or nothing approach. As stated in my original post, a number of addiction experts feel that more people would do something about their alcohol problem at an earlier point if at the onset they were offered a choice between abstinence and a moderate drinking approach. It's also interesting to note that when allowed a choice studies show that even when people are trained in controlled drinking, many alcohol-dependent people wind up choosing abstinence as many find that after a month of no alcohol it's just easier or they find they just prefer their life that way (better sleep, no stinking thinking, etc.).

As to whether I am leading people with problems astray, let me remind you that I gave advice that people who scored low on the Alcohol Dependence Test would probably not be a good candidate to moderate. I also want to say that in my 5 years of being here I have not gone to neutral (supposedly) or AF sites touting moderation as an option. I only recently posted our site as an option to come here for newbies on the Starting Out thread as some people were actually sharing experiences of feeling traumatized by radical abstainers when they questioned (let me clarify that I am not saying all abstainers are radical) whether they could have another drink again. I have posted more than once that I totally understand that for some people having another drink could be deadly and that some people not only have to live one day at a time but one step at a time. Yet for those who are great advocates of total abstinence, it would be wonderful if they could understand that there are varying degrees of alcohol problems.

This will be my only clarification to any abstinent folks who feel offended as I am going to do my best to not have this post turn into an abstainer versus mod discussion. I am sorry that anyone who is AF feels offended in any way but please remember that this is our moderation site, I didn't come to an AF only site where people are fighting to stay sober. The moderation site exists for people who are learning techniques for controlled drinking. I stand by what I say as I believe that when given choices, folks have better outcomes.

Peace to all.
:l
Eve11

[scottish lass]

Can you moderate?

Hi, I have been reading this thread and some other similar ones ? and on this thread I really appreciate Free Fly and LadyBirdHearts responses. The great thing about MWO is that there is so much information and so many opinions, that one can really red all over and find what fits for them ? if the shoe fits, wear it sort of approach. I have really enjoyed that, and I stay away for posts that don?t feel comfortable to my beliefs/attitudes ? after all we are all grown-up here. I do find the antagonistic arguing very sad, and really unnecessary. Good debates are one thing and should be encouraged, but not digs or put downs. There are some threads that are really horrible and so out of place for a huge group of people trying to recover.
I thank you for this post, I did come to MWO as it was not all or nothing ? and 18mos later, I am still not able to come to terms with the idea of never. I did start out to become AF and managed 66 days almost a year ago, I have not managed that again, but what I have managed recently is to cut way back ? and when I drink, I am very, very aware ? and that is great for me ? and maybe that is what I need to strive for.
I do know that after my slip earlier this year, I was too embarrassed/guilty/worried about reactions to come back ? and that held me back from moving forward, and even now admitting that this month I have had wine twice makes me cringe (my self esteem is pretty low obviously) ? why am I not posting that I have not drunk wine on the other 7 days and enjoying that victory.
Eve and friends, thank you for showing us all our options. I work in health care and the most important thing that I can do is to give the families that I work with all the information so that they can make an informed decision and the right decision for their circumstances.
I do not want an excuse to be able to drink, I like the term harm reduction and maybe that is what will be the right thing for me at this stage in my decision to become healthier and more cognizant of what I am doing to myself, my family, my friends etc etc?.

[Eve11]

Can you moderate?

Scottish Lass,

You gave the best answer as to why this post was created...for people like you! It is that part of people's fear of being judged e.g. you had a slip and then were afraid to come back for the support you needed... as to why we are here at the mod board. It truly is about harm reduction and whether we are trying to abstain or moderate, so many of us slip here and there and we want to be able to post somewhere where we are accepted, failures and all. Please share your thoughts with us anytime...we're here for you.

:l
Eve11

[DfromCT]

Can you moderate?

For every person like SottishLass that has the courage to post, I fear there's three or four others that simply walk away, not wanting to get caught in the negativity of these arguments, or worse, be judged in a way that many have already judged themselves. Thank you, SL for showing courage and speaking up. Those that are lurking and not posting, know that we care about you nonetheless. I heard from a few lurkers like you earlier this evening, which is one reason I'm continuing to post, despite my own feelings that I'd be better off walking away from the extreme AFers.

[patrice]

Can you moderate?

I agree

Patrice

[Eve11]

Can you moderate?

DfromCT;1389991 wrote: For every person like SottishLass that has the courage to post, I fear there's three or four others that simply walk away, not wanting to get caught in the negativity of these arguments, or worse, be judged in a way that many have already judged themselves.

Nicely stated DfromCT and I so agree. I was pm'd from two folks that had some beautiful words of wisdom to share and thanked me for the post but didn't want to get caught up in the "battle" and I can't blame them. Whether we are trying to abstain or control our drinking we all share this problem of difficulties with alcohol. IMO, we should just all get along. I wish no ill will toward anyone abstaining and refuse to get into a debate with this post. The intentions were simply to help those who aren't quite ready to make that all or nothing commitment but give them time to wet their feet and figure their individual way out knowing that they will find support here at our moderation site.
:l
Eve11

[nancy]

Can you moderate?

moderation

I remember writing years ago on the same topic that yes, the book My Way Out encourages moderation, but as part of a program. And it always seemed to me that the key part of that program was pharmaceutical, as in Topomax. But people could not stand the side effects and they wound up trying alternatives instead.

I think that with a whole program including pharmaceutical intervention moderation is possible. It's possible otherwise but it's a lot harder. Why do we accept nicotine patches for smokers but everything with drinking is concealed and pharma aids are prohibited in AA programs? And for those who are abstinent from booze, aside from the help of Xanax or Ativan, doesn't that make you still an addict in AA's eyes? I have seen a number of abstinent members here who are on anti-anxiety meds such as these. I am not referring to the meds threads but to other parts of the site.

I think Eve has written some great posts. Never be afraid of knowledge. Fear alone won't keep you on the straight and narrow.

Medicine is now tailored to individual people. Why should addiction be any different?
And food for thought, people with obsessive food disorders are encouraged about longer times between binges. Food for thought.

[drinkingal]

Can you moderate?

Byrdlady;1389913 wrote: 'Why would you post this question?' Even in the mods boards? B

IMO the post gives people the opportunity to assess whether moderation is achievable and is aimed at someone coming to the mod board to investigate whether this is something they may be able to do. It's a completely appropriate post for this section. What really surprises me is that a few with strong anti mod feelings would come to this board and turn this useful post into yet another debate on the topic. There is an almost irrational fear about it with some people that anyone might try modding or harm reduction. If it bothers some people to read about modding, then just don't read this section, I think it's far better than upsetting yourself that people are taking this approach. I''m not even tempted to read the monthly or long term abbers boards, I have enough respect to stay out of a board that I don't participate in and let people get on with it, so I don't understand the fascination some affers have with this board if it strongly goes against your beliefs, and those who come here to criticize are just disrupting an otherwise peaceful supportive board, and MWO is supposed to be about support for everyone.

But I think scottishlass' story is typical of why the all or nothing approach fails many people, and modding/harm reduction needs to be part of the equation, because attempting complete abstinence for some does end up in a situation where a person just starts flogging themselves for "failure" but feel they have no right to celebrate "progress". No one here at this board is anti AFing, and some modders will go on to decide that af is what they ultimately want to be and the mod experience can be a great help towards reaching that goal and making that decision.

One last thing that I will say is that people come to MWO for help and support and it should be given without being conditional on total abstinence, you need to allow people to make their own choices and figure things out otherwise you're just treating them like children.

[kuya]

Can you moderate?

drinkingal;1390076 wrote: I''m not even tempted to read the monthly or long term abbers boards, I have enough respect to stay out of a board that I don't participate in and let people get on with it, so I don't understand the fascination some affers have with this board if it strongly goes against your beliefs, and those who come here to criticize are just disrupting an otherwise peaceful supportive board, and MWO is supposed to be about support for everyone.

Except when it comes to others beliefs, apparently! I couldn't resist .....sorry DG you just handed it to me on a plate luv. :H:H:H

Anyhoo ..... In this regard I think the problem is with the way the boards are arranged, and nothing can really be done about that.

If some one posts here for the first time they have a problem that is serious, at least for them.

I think everyone agrees that newbies should get a month under their belt AF before deciding what to do in the future. And I know some people REALLY struggle to get that month, which confirms that they should be abstainant for the time being.

For the diehard AFs, they get upset cos the mods threads will show up in the faces of those struggling to achieve even a short sobriety. As Byrdie says, it is destabilizing for those who, after a few days are dying for an excuse to drink.

Even I, who find it easy to abstain, read Eve's post, sympathized with the position, took the test she suggested, answered all the questions honestly AND GOT A SCORE OF 9 !! Even I, now totally committed to life AF had a few moments of .... I wonder if I could moderate ....DOH!!

I have consumed half a bottle of vodka every day(nearly) for 23 years, was drinking myself to death AND GOT A SCORE OF 9 !!
But this is because I have taken supplements for the last 12 years, thereby protecting myself, and have the constitution of an ox (thank g......enetics :H).

All the arguments and backbiting are not a fault of the Modders or the Abbers,it is a fault of the archaic website, which we all know there is no money to update.

I know when I had my thread in the 'what we believe' section I HATED the fact it came up with every new post. It drew attention from people who had NO RIGHT being there.

Regardless of what the religious assumed, I ONLY wanted to interact with atheists, not believers. The irony of your dilemma does give me cause for a wry smile.

Perhaps if we put our heads together instead of bitching we can find a way forward. Right now 2000 people visit MWO daily and probably see the ignorance and intolerance and get the fuck outta here ASAP.

( and DG.... I don't hold grudges........ Life's too short and too fecking funny )

[drinkingal]

Can you moderate?

kuya;1390091 wrote: Except when it comes to others beliefs, apparently! I couldn't resist .....sorry DG you just handed it to me on a plate luv. :H:H:H

Anyhoo ..... In this regard I think the problem is with the way the boards are arranged, and nothing can really be done about that.

If some one posts here for the first time they have a problem that is serious, at least for them.

I think everyone agrees that newbies should get a month under their belt AF before deciding what to do in the future. And I know some people REALLY struggle to get that month, which confirms that they should be abstainant for the time being.

For the diehard AFs, they get upset cos the mods threads will show up in the faces of those struggling to achieve even a short sobriety. As Byrdie says, it is destabilizing for those who, after a few days are dying for an excuse to drink.

Even I, who find it easy to abstain, read Eve's post, sympathized with the position, took the test she suggested, answered all the questions honestly AND GOT A SCORE OF 9 !!
I have consumed half a bottle of vodka every day(nearly) for 23 years AND GOT A SCORE OF 9 !!
But this is because I have taken supplements for the last 12 years, thereby protecting myself, and have the constitution of an ox (thank g......enetics :H).

But this is not a fault of the Modders or the Abbers,it is a fault of the archaic website, which we all know there is no money to update.

I know when I had my thread in the 'what we believe' section I HATED the fact it came up with every new post. It drew attention from people who had NO RIGHT being there.

Regardless of what the religious assumed, I ONLY wanted to interact with atheists, not believers. The irony of your dilemma does give me cause for a wry smile.

Perhaps if we put our heads together instead of bitching we can find a way forward. Right now 2000 people visit MWO daily and probably see the ignorance and intolerance and get the fuck outta here ASAP.

( and DG.... I don't hold grudges........ Life's too short and too fecking funny )

Kuya, if you go back and read my posts on your topic you would see I never had a problem with your beliefs, I had a problem with your attitude and you're disrespect for other people. You had the opportunity to create a topic about atheism, but instead you chose to create an anti-religion, anti-uneducated post, and you did nothing but dismiss and ignore everyone who tried to tell you that, but it was easier for you to believe that people were attacking your beliefs. It's irrelevant to this discussion though, and you are now just disrupting this board further over a topic that I haven't posted on in over a week?

[kuya]

Can you moderate?

Lighten up DG, and laugh for flecks sake. I am not being disruptive I am trying to be helpful.

I can't help my sense of humour ........ Come on let's kiss and make up ...cos drunk or sober life is too short

[patrice]

Can you moderate?

DG - yes that is good advice.. I think Kuya's post was very conciliatory and tongue in cheek...and not at all disruptive... just another opinion..All Good

Take care
Patrice